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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:55 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
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I've seen it suggested that today's players (mainly pitchers) need to be evaluated differently because this era demands "max effort" on every pitch, so they can't be expected to go more than five innings a game or 180 per year.



But why does it demand "max effort" on every pitch? How can it be that Giolito and Cease are giving max effort and then abandoning the game to reliever roulette while an old guy like Cueto that the organization doesn't really care about is getting more outs just tossing the kitchen sink up there?

The modern belief that pitchers only "control" strikeouts and walks (and possibly home runs) has forced that situation. A guy who strikes out eight and leaves the game with the lead in the fifth inning in most of his starts is more valued than a guy who strikes out three and leaves the game with the lead in the seventh most of the time. That's fucked up.


I agree. Are you going to change the rules in your league? :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:56 am 
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The very first thing they should do is eliminate the extra inning nonsense. I find that "rule" to be the most repelling change of all.


agreed. I'd rather games end in a tie after nine than this putting a runner on second bs

I dont want games ending in a tie.

I wish they would go back to regular extra inning rules for at least 2-3 innings and then if it is still tied add the runner to 2nd.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:58 am 
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RFDC wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
The very first thing they should do is eliminate the extra inning nonsense. I find that "rule" to be the most repelling change of all.


agreed. I'd rather games end in a tie after nine than this putting a runner on second bs

I dont want games ending in a tie.

I wish they would go back to regular extra inning rules for at least 2-3 innings and then if it is still tied add the runner to 2nd.
Exactly. Play the 10th and 11th inning like MLB did for 120 years.

If they want to save arms and put a guy on 2nd or 3rd to start the 12th, fine.
Or play all normal innings and allow a 27th man on the roster for the following game if it goes past the 12th.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:59 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I have no problem with guys who are capable trying to drop bunts for hits. I believe the batting average on bunts is about .400. It's the free out that is absurd.


Uh don't know about that. I've always been good with "getting the guy over" if that is the best way to do it in that situation. Two runners on (1st and 2nd) and no one out with a .200 hitter at the plate, drop the bunt and move the runners over.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:02 am 
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The Missing Link wrote:
Two runners on (1st and 2nd) and no one out with a .200 hitter at the plate, drop the bunt and move the runners over.
The math says that you less likely to score with runners at 2nd and 3rd with one out than you are with runners at 1st and 2nd with nobody out.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:04 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
I've seen it suggested that today's players (mainly pitchers) need to be evaluated differently because this era demands "max effort" on every pitch, so they can't be expected to go more than five innings a game or 180 per year.



But why does it demand "max effort" on every pitch? How can it be that Giolito and Cease are giving max effort and then abandoning the game to reliever roulette while an old guy like Cueto that the organization doesn't really care about is getting more outs just tossing the kitchen sink up there?

The modern belief that pitchers only "control" strikeouts and walks (and possibly home runs) has forced that situation. A guy who strikes out eight and leaves the game with the lead in the fifth inning in most of his starts is more valued than a guy who strikes out three and leaves the game with the lead in the seventh most of the time. That's fucked up.


I agree. Are you going to change the rules in your league? :wink:


:lol: Are you still playing? I haven't had a team for a couple years. I know the newer guys hated that the "Quality Start" was seven innings. I would have thought that some of the pitching scoring would have been changed. There can't be many "Quality Starts." Also, guys are getting the 10 strikeout bonus in five innings.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:05 am 
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The strikeout is what the fan wants and the analytic guys love. I remember watching Jon Lieber throw a 75 pitch complete game. The game was over in less than 2 hours IIRC. It was a masterful performance. It was nowhere near as exciting as watching the Randy Johnsons or Kerry Woods of the world when they were locked in.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:05 am 
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Manfred's man on 2nd bottom half tied extra innings. Nobody out. Weak hitter up. They don't bunt. I don't get it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:06 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
I've seen it suggested that today's players (mainly pitchers) need to be evaluated differently because this era demands "max effort" on every pitch, so they can't be expected to go more than five innings a game or 180 per year.



But why does it demand "max effort" on every pitch? How can it be that Giolito and Cease are giving max effort and then abandoning the game to reliever roulette while an old guy like Cueto that the organization doesn't really care about is getting more outs just tossing the kitchen sink up there?

The modern belief that pitchers only "control" strikeouts and walks (and possibly home runs) has forced that situation. A guy who strikes out eight and leaves the game with the lead in the fifth inning in most of his starts is more valued than a guy who strikes out three and leaves the game with the lead in the seventh most of the time. That's fucked up.


I agree. Are you going to change the rules in your league? :wink:


:lol: Are you still playing? I haven't had a team for a couple years. I know the newer guys hated that the "Quality Start" was seven innings. I would have thought that some of the pitching scoring would have been changed. There can't be many "Quality Starts." Also, guys are getting the 10 strikeout bonus in five innings.


I'm still in. Strikeout is still king.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:08 am 
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The Missing Link wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I have no problem with guys who are capable trying to drop bunts for hits. I believe the batting average on bunts is about .400. It's the free out that is absurd.


Uh don't know about that. I've always been good with "getting the guy over" if that is the best way to do it in that situation. Two runners on (1st and 2nd) and no one out with a .200 hitter at the plate, drop the bunt and move the runners over.


The numbers can't really support it. I don't think you should EVER sacrifice with two men on. I agree there are situations where it's called for. For example, late in a one-run or tie game where the pitcher looks unhittable but walks a guy to lead off an inning. I think sacrifice bunts should be like abortions- safe, legal, and RARE.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:11 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I have no problem with guys who are capable trying to drop bunts for hits. I believe the batting average on bunts is about .400. It's the free out that is absurd.


Uh don't know about that. I've always been good with "getting the guy over" if that is the best way to do it in that situation. Two runners on (1st and 2nd) and no one out with a .200 hitter at the plate, drop the bunt and move the runners over.


The numbers can't really support it. I don't think you should EVER sacrifice with two men on. I agree there are situations where it's called for. For example, late in a one-run or tie game where the pitcher looks unhittable but walks a guy to lead off an inning. I think sacrifice bunts should be like abortions- safe, legal, and RARE.


Fuck the numbers. We're where we are because of the numbers. Go with your gut.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:12 am 
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Regardless of what the analytics says if the manager asks you to drop the bunt then you should be able to drop the bunt.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:19 am 
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The Missing Link wrote:
Regardless of what the analytics says if the manager asks you to drop the bunt then you should be able to drop the bunt.
Yes players need to execute, but that isn't the point. MANY times when managers call for a sacrifice bunt they are actively hurting their chances at scoring a run because they are giving away an out. As Jorr said, there are times where it useful, but most of the time-- especially now that pitchers don't hit-- let your guys swing away.


Edit- talking about a sac bunt

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:22 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Regardless of what the analytics says if the manager asks you to drop the bunt then you should be able to drop the bunt.
Yes players need to execute, but that isn't the point. MANY times when managers call for a bunt they are actively hurting their chances at scoring a run because they are giving away an out. As Jorr said, there are times where it useful, but most of the time-- especially now that pitchers don't hit-- let your guys swing away.


I don't want to see a .200 hitter "swinging" away with runners on 1st and 2nd with no one out.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:24 am 
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The Missing Point wrote:
I don't want to see a .200 hitter "swinging" away with runners on 1st and 2nd with no one out.
Again, you're missing the point. It's not about what you want to see or don't want to see. You SHOULD want to see your team score runs. The numbers say that you are more likely to score a run by letting all three guys in the inning swing away. You are less likely to score a run if you give up a free out by telling the .200 hitter to bunt.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:26 am 
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The Missing Link wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Regardless of what the analytics says if the manager asks you to drop the bunt then you should be able to drop the bunt.
Yes players need to execute, but that isn't the point. MANY times when managers call for a bunt they are actively hurting their chances at scoring a run because they are giving away an out. As Jorr said, there are times where it useful, but most of the time-- especially now that pitchers don't hit-- let your guys swing away.


I don't want to see a .200 hitter "swinging" away with runners on 1st and 2nd with no one out.



I don't want him to make an out on purpose. Usually in the situation you describe the pitcher is struggling. You give him a free out and he breathes a sigh of relief. Just two to go. I CAN DO THIS! The Indians rescued Matt Foster like that the other night.

I would argue that if you don't believe the guy can get a hit in that situation, he shouldn't be up there at the plate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:34 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
MANY times when managers call for a sacrifice bunt they are actively hurting their chances at scoring a run because they are giving away an out.


And they are really hurting their chances of scoring more than one.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:37 am 
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I like the sacrifice bunt. I hate the double play that I saw coming a mile away.

MANY people in this thread acknowledge that analytics is ruining baseball. Now, we're clinging to the bullshit analytics about bunts with men on base.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:45 am 
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Nas wrote:
I like the sacrifice bunt. I hate the double play that I saw coming a mile away.

MANY people in this thread acknowledge that analytics is ruining baseball. Now, we're clinging to the bullshit analytics about bunts with men on base.


Yep! But oh that damn Bernstein!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:50 am 
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Nas wrote:
I like the sacrifice bunt. I hate the double play that I saw coming a mile away.

MANY people in this thread acknowledge that analytics is ruining baseball. Now, we're clinging to the bullshit analytics about bunts with men on base.



I don't think analytics are "ruining" baseball. I think analytics simply lead smart teams to make the moves that are statistically most successful. That may have resulted in a boring game. But that isn't the fault of analytics.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:57 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I don't think analytics are "ruining" baseball. I think analytics simply lead smart teams to make the moves that are statistically most successful. That may have resulted in a boring game. But that isn't the fault of analytics.


They have ruined it to the extent that it has become more boring. Nothing is worse than watching batters take borderline pitches. Hopefully the automatic zone will help with that. I still think a worthwhile (though radical) idea would be to charge a batter with two strikes on a called strike.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:57 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I like the sacrifice bunt. I hate the double play that I saw coming a mile away.

MANY people in this thread acknowledge that analytics is ruining baseball. Now, we're clinging to the bullshit analytics about bunts with men on base.



I don't think analytics are "ruining" baseball. I think analytics simply lead smart teams to make the moves that are statistically most successful. That may have resulted in a boring game. But that isn't the fault of analytics.


We're going to disagree. The smart people have decided that strikeouts, home runs, launch angles, 4 inning starters, and no steals are best. It's ruined the game by making it significantly longer and less compelling.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:22 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I like the sacrifice bunt. I hate the double play that I saw coming a mile away.

MANY people in this thread acknowledge that analytics is ruining baseball. Now, we're clinging to the bullshit analytics about bunts with men on base.



I don't think analytics are "ruining" baseball. I think analytics simply lead smart teams to make the moves that are statistically most successful. That may have resulted in a boring game. But that isn't the fault of analytics.


We're going to disagree. The smart people have decided that strikeouts, home runs, launch angles, 4 inning starters, and no steals are best. It's ruined the game by making it significantly longer and less compelling.



This sums up my issue with baseball.

Much longer games with less compelling action as everyone hopes for the homer.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:23 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Missing Link wrote:
Regardless of what the analytics says if the manager asks you to drop the bunt then you should be able to drop the bunt.
Yes players need to execute, but that isn't the point. MANY times when managers call for a bunt they are actively hurting their chances at scoring a run because they are giving away an out. As Jorr said, there are times where it useful, but most of the time-- especially now that pitchers don't hit-- let your guys swing away.


I don't want to see a .200 hitter "swinging" away with runners on 1st and 2nd with no one out.



I don't want him to make an out on purpose. Usually in the situation you describe the pitcher is struggling. You give him a free out and he breathes a sigh of relief. Just two to go. I CAN DO THIS! The Indians rescued Matt Foster like that the other night.

I would argue that if you don't believe the guy can get a hit in that situation, he shouldn't be up there at the plate.


If he is a .200 hitter he is overwhelmingly likely to make an out anyway. And if he makes the out without moving the runners, then it is an "unproductive" at bat. If it is someone like Adam Dunn then you let him swing away because he probably isn't a good bunter. If it is a .200 hitter who has the ability to bunt then let him bunt.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:24 pm 
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If you want more action, you shouldn't be advocating for sacrifice bunts.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:31 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
The Missing Point wrote:
I don't want to see a .200 hitter "swinging" away with runners on 1st and 2nd with no one out.
Again, you're missing the point. It's not about what you want to see or don't want to see. You SHOULD want to see your team score runs. The numbers say that you are more likely to score a run by letting all three guys in the inning swing away. You are less likely to score a run if you give up a free out by telling the .200 hitter to bunt.


The numbers on this are mostly "negligible" and bunting is and always has been a "situational" aspect of the game. There isn't much difference in the amount of scoring and having a .200 hitter (who is very much likely to make an out anyway) swing away and make an unproductive out, as opposed to "move the runners" along isn't "smart" baseball. Never has been either.

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Last edited by The Missing Link on Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:32 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
If you want more action, you shouldn't be advocating for sacrifice bunts.


That piece of strategy makes the game interesting. So does the hit and run and base runners who steal bases.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:42 pm 
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Baseball is fine. Teams are making more money, players are making more money…it’s a regional sport and when your favorite team is competitive, it’s still the dominant story through the summer (until rookies report).

Power pitching won’t kill the sport. I wouldn’t mind them legislating the shift out of the game, but I’d take today’s product over the 6hr Yankees-Red Sox games from 15 years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:47 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
If you want more action, you shouldn't be advocating for sacrifice bunts.


That piece of strategy makes the game interesting. So does the hit and run and base runners who steal bases.
Nas, you're advocating for more action in baseball while at the same time advocating for plays that most of the time result in fewer runs being scored.

The hit & run, steal, and sac bunt all still have a place. But to automatically go to use it is an antiquated way of thinking.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:48 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I like the sacrifice bunt. I hate the double play that I saw coming a mile away.

MANY people in this thread acknowledge that analytics is ruining baseball. Now, we're clinging to the bullshit analytics about bunts with men on base.



I don't think analytics are "ruining" baseball. I think analytics simply lead smart teams to make the moves that are statistically most successful. That may have resulted in a boring game. But that isn't the fault of analytics.


We're going to disagree. The smart people have decided that strikeouts, home runs, launch angles, 4 inning starters, and no steals are best. It's ruined the game by making it significantly longer and less compelling.



We don't really disagree. The smart people are doing the things most likely to help their teams win. That isn't the fault of the analytics. The analytics simply reveals what those things are.

We agree that the game has problems. It's boring, due in no small part to the factors you mention above. But I woul;dn't blame the analytics for that. Adjust the rules so that the things making the game boring are not rewarded.

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