It's a pretty easy argument to make. Wayne Gretzky played 20 seasons for 4 teams, including the Oilers and Kings. He had 894 goals, 1,963 assists and a plus-minus of +520 in 1,487 games. He won 9 Hart Trophies, 5 Lady Byng Trophies, 2 Conn Smythe Trophies and 4 Stanley Cups.

The crazy stats which put his relative greatness in perspective include:
-Gretzky won the scoring title by more than 70 points – six times. The past six NHL scoring races were decided by a combined 60 points. Only one non-Gretzky player has even won the scoring race by more than 30 points.
-If Gretzky never scored a goal, he still would’ve recorded 11 straight 100-point seasons and won four scoring titles. A no-goal Gretzky would still have the most 100-point seasons of all-time, and he’d be tied for the fifth-most scoring titles.
-Gretzky won eight consecutive MVPs at one point. In the NHL, NBA, NFL and MLB, no other player has won more than four consecutive MVPs.
-Only five players have recorded 150 or more points in a season. Gretzky did it nine times, a.k.a. in 45 percent of his seasons.
-Gretzky is the only player to record a 200-point season, and he did it four times.
-In a two-season stretch from 1983-84 to 1984-85, Gretzky scored 23 shorthanded goals. Only 52 players have more than 23 career shorties, and Gretzky has 73 in total, the most all-time.
-Gretzky led the league in assists in each of his first 13 seasons, and 16 times overall – 80 percent of his seasons.
-If you only counted Gretzky’s seasons after turning 30, he’d still rank fourth all-time in points per game.

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As great as he was, he only won 4 times. If you aren't winning, you're just compiling stats. I don't want to consider Gretzky the LeBron or a championshipless Ruth of hockey. However, his inability to win more cups allows Brady to be in the argument of greatest player in the history of team sports. .

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I was probably swayed too much by the number of times Montana and Walsh were drawing up plays in the dirt and on the sidelines (& the rings) to put them on par with Joe. And they couldn’t get it done for years if at all.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

He had his usual great defense that beat the Rams, played a stupid Atlanta team and a coaching staff from Seattle that ran the dumbest play in NFL history. Not to mention getting beat by Nick Foles. And arguably was just ok unless Gronk was on the field

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

One of the reasons is that I was always partial to guys that had rockets for arms. Marino and Elway had those and Montana did not. The other reason is that both got more done with less. Though Marino never won the big one he did get to a Super Bowl and some AFC championship games. And he got there with supporting casts that were nowhere near as good as Montana's. Elway had junk around him during those earlier Super Bowl runs and yet still managed to get his team there anyway. That is why I have always been partial to him and Marino over Montana.

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The Missing Link talking offseason out of town football.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

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He certainly doesn't match Gretzky's numbers but Bobby Orr completely changed the way the game was played.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

yea last week i hard S&P slobbering over Lebron's scoring record and how he did it in 150 games (or something like that ) less than Kareem...it's like for starters, scoring in the NBA is basically double what it was when Kareem was in his prime...defensive rules were different, no 3 , etc.

LeBron also has more than two thousand more 3-point shots made than Kareem.

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Marino always impressed with his passing talent and Elway was special, even on crappy Stanford teams. I respected their games and how different, but only one quarterback ended the Dallas Cowboys run. Fwiw I only despise one pro franchise as much as the Cubbies and that’s Dallas.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

And three more losses in the Finals.

And Conns, Jesse Owens is exactly the example I think of during these exchanges.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Dallas was my 2nd favorite NFL team as a kid. I stopped liking them as much when Jerry Jones came in and dissed Tom Landry.

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Lebron's bogus titles:

2012 lockout shortened season, only 66 regular season games, iirc

2013 Spurs go up 3-2 in the series, Ray Allen bails out LeFraud with Allen's icon 3 point jumper after Bosh rebounds LeBron's bricked 3 attempt

2016 -- Golden State up 3 games to 1 and then LeBron gets Draymond kicked out for Game 5 to spark Cleveland's comeback to take the series. Kyrie hitting the shot in Game 7, again someone else bailing out James

2020 -- rinky dink disney covid title, shouldn't even be mentioned. Completely bogus.

Other than Jordan and TB12, the only contender for GOAT is Alan Francis. More titles than Brady and Jordan combined. He's won the world championship in 5 decades.

Rob Wegley has bowled a 300 in seven decades. GOAT.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I felt the same way...but I got over it pretty quick when they got good.

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I've never had a favorite team outside of Chicago. I rooted for players like Brady and Kobe, but I still wanted them to lose when they played a Chicago team.

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It's going to suck when Arlington Heights people get to feel the same way

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

This is an all time awful take.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Why?

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Guy has his name on the cup 4 times and ALL the scoring records and you say he wasn't winning but stat compiling?
Total madness. I'm not even sure where to begin on this one.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

It a weird place to be. If you're not compiling stats what are you doing? "Well you should be making people around you better so you win." The LA Kings stunk in 93-94, didn't even make the playoffs, and Gretzky led the league in scoring. If he led the league in goals, maybe that's selfishly compiling, but he had 25 more assists than anyone in the league. He selfishly...passed too much to guys who scored? Instead he should have...played better defense, done more intangible-y things? Maybe he should have retired earlier, but maybe Brady should have too. Gretzky's 2nd to last season he still selfishly compiled more assists than anybody else in the league.

Despite his greatness, he only won 4 times in 20 years, like LeBron. Gretzky not winning more allows Brady to enter the argument of greatest player in a team sport. I acknowledged his greatness and Ruth's greatness in this discussion. Jordan has no argument beyond being responsible for the explosion in athletes salaries.

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You only acknowledged half of Ruth's greatness. Babe Ruth was on a HOF track as a pitcher. Then he hit 700 HRs. Also won 7 titles.

Its Ruth #1, and everyone else is fighting for second.

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Sport not mentioned, but Muhammed Ali has to be included in the GOAT discussions.

For Hockey, my ex-FIL and my son constantly debate Orr v Gretzky. I think Gretzky's assist points in addition to goals kind of seal that one, but I certainly believe it's a valid debate.

For Jordan and basketball....bring up some of the others, but Lebron doesn't touch Jordan in terms GOATness. And yes...I hate Lebron for "The Decision". Come at me...fine...I don't care

TB12 may not have been the most gifted passer, but IMO he's the NFL GOAT QB. The rings and the data support it.

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It was team sports.

Individual its Tiger Woods.

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You spelled Jack Nicklaus wrong.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

The guys you referenced were are wildly larger than life while the games were on. To me that factors in as much as any numbers. Funny thing is how no one mentions faces of the eighties Magic and Bird though.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.