It is currently Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:34 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2225 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 71, 72, 73, 74, 75  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 16499
pizza_Place: Boni Vino
How the hell did Credit Suisse’s AT1 bondholders get zeroed out completely while shareholders did not and will get about a 40% recovery? Only thing I can think of is that the Swiss gov believes there are more voters who own shares than bonds. Reminiscent of the bullshit that occurred in 2008 with GM.

_________________
To IkeSouth, bigfan wrote:
Are you stoned or pissed off, or both, when you create these postings?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:28 am
Posts: 4074
SpiralStairs wrote:
I don’t get it


If the US doesn't go into hyperinflation the twitter guy wins a million bucks. If the US does go into hyperinflation the twitter guy loses a million bucks, but because of hyperinflation the million bucks is worth two cents.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
Jaw Breaker wrote:
How the hell did Credit Suisse’s AT1 bondholders get zeroed out completely while shareholders did not and will get about a 40% recovery? Only thing I can think of is that the Swiss gov believes there are more voters who own shares than bonds. Reminiscent of the bullshit that occurred in 2008 with GM.


It does not make sense. I assume the thinking is they need shareholders to approve the sale, so they had to give them something.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
One Post wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
I don’t get it


If the US doesn't go into hyperinflation the twitter guy wins a million bucks. If the US does go into hyperinflation the twitter guy loses a million bucks, but because of hyperinflation the million bucks is worth two cents.


He’s trolling. Spiral is a very smart person. He just likes to play dumb to elicit a response.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 16499
pizza_Place: Boni Vino
denisdman wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
How the hell did Credit Suisse’s AT1 bondholders get zeroed out completely while shareholders did not and will get about a 40% recovery? Only thing I can think of is that the Swiss gov believes there are more voters who own shares than bonds. Reminiscent of the bullshit that occurred in 2008 with GM.


It does not make sense. I assume the thinking is they need shareholders to approve the sale, so they had to give them something.


Yeah, I think you’re right. As my guy Matt Levine (Bloomberg) said today, “it is hard for the board of directors of the selling company to say to their shareholders ‘hey we negotiated the best possible price for you, which is zero.’ ”

But more importantly:

After the 2008 financial crisis, European banks issued a lot of what are called “additional tier 1 capital securities,” or “contingent convertibles,” or AT1s or CoCos. The way an AT1 works is like this:

It is a bond, has a fixed face amount, and pays regular interest.
It is perpetual — the bank never has to pay it back — but the bank can pay it back after five years, and generally does.
If the bank’s common equity tier 1 capital ratio — a measure of its regulatory capital — falls below 7%, then the AT1 is written down to zero: It never needs to be paid back; it just goes away completely.
This — a “7% trigger permanent write-down AT1” — is not the only way for an AT1 to work, though it is the way that Credit Suisse’s AT1s worked. Some AT1s have different triggers. Some AT1s convert into common stock when the trigger is hit, instead of being written down to zero; others are temporarily written down (they stop paying interest) when the trigger is hit, but can bounce back if the equity recovers.

These securities are, basically, a trick. To investors, they seem like bonds: They pay interest, get paid back in five years, feel pretty safe. To regulators, they seem like equity: If the bank runs into trouble, it can raise capital by zeroing the AT1s. If investors think they are bonds and regulators think they are equity, somebody is wrong. The investors are wrong.

In particular, investors seem to think that AT1s are senior to equity, and that the common stock needs to go to zero before the AT1s suffer any losses. But this is not quite right. You can tell because the whole point of the AT1s is that they go to zero if the common equity tier 1 capital ratio falls below 7%. Like, imagine a bank:

It has $1 billion of assets (also $1 billion of regulatory risk-weighted assets).
It has $100 million of common equity (also $100 million of regulatory common equity tier 1 capital).
It has a 10% CET1 capital ratio.
It also has $50 million of AT1s with a 7% write-down trigger, and $850 million of more senior liabilities.
This bank runs into trouble and the value of its assets falls to $950 million. What happens? Well, under the very straightforward terms of the AT1s — not some weird fine print in the back of the prospectus, but right in the name “7% CET1 trigger write-down AT1” — this is what happens:

It has $950 million of assets and $50 million of common equity, for a CET1 ratio of 5.3%.
This is below 7%, so the AT1s are triggered and written down to zero.
Now it has $950 million of assets, $850 million of liabilities, and thus $100 million of shareholders’ equity.
Now it has a CET1 ratio of 10.5%: The writedown of the AT1s has restored the bank’s equity capital ratios.
This, again, is very explicitly the whole thing that the AT1 is supposed to do, this is its main function, this is the AT1 working exactly as advertised. But notice that in this simple example the bank has $950 million of assets, $850 million of liabilities and $100 million of shareholders’ equity. This means that the common stock still has value. The common shareholders still own shares worth $100 million, even as the AT1s are now permanently worth zero.

The AT1s are junior to the common stock. Not all the time, and there are scenarios (instant descent into bankruptcy) where the AT1s get paid ahead of the common. But the most basic function of the AT1 is to go to zero while the bank is a going concern with positive equity value, meaning that its function is to go to zero before the common stock does.

Credit Suisse has issued a bunch of AT1s over the years; as of last week it had about CHF 16 billion outstanding. Here is a prospectus for one of them, a $2 billion US dollar 7.5% AT1 issued in 2018. “7.500 per cent. Perpetual Tier 1 Contingent Write-down Capital Notes,” they are called.

In UBS’s deal to buy Credit Suisse, shareholders are getting something (about CHF 3 billion worth of Credit Suisse shares) and Credit Suisse’s AT1 holders are getting nothing: The Credit Suisse AT1 securities are getting zeroed. This is not, to be clear, exactly because Credit Suisse’s CET1 capital fell below 7%; instead, there is a separate clause of the AT1s allowing them to be zeroed if the bank’s regulator decides that zeroing them is “an essential requirement to prevent CSG from becoming insolvent, bankrupt or unable to pay a material part of its debts as they fall due.” Plus, in a situation like this, the banking regulators get to do a certain amount of ad hoc stuff, and they do. (They got rid of the shareholder vote on the deal!) Zeroing the AT1s while preserving a little value for the common does seem to have been done in an ad hoc way; my point is just that it follows very logically from the terms and function of the AT1s.

_________________
To IkeSouth, bigfan wrote:
Are you stoned or pissed off, or both, when you create these postings?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
Keeping a close eye on ONON. I was about to pull the trigger on a half unit investment this morning, but it is up 15% today. I just ordered my first pair of their shoes. I will look for a better entry point.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:31 pm
Posts: 1380
pizza_Place: Pequods
denisdman wrote:
Keeping a close eye on ONON. I was about to pull the trigger on a half unit investment this morning, but it is up 15% today. I just ordered my first pair of their shoes. I will look for a better entry point.

Completely annoyed with myself. I saw those shoe’s everywhere, so bought a pair about a month ago. Looked at the stock then and didn’t pull the trigger. Could have made a cool 40%, but I’ve become gun shy in this market.

As far as the shoes go, they’re very light and comfortable. I haven’t had them long enough to assess durability.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
Heisenberg wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Keeping a close eye on ONON. I was about to pull the trigger on a half unit investment this morning, but it is up 15% today. I just ordered my first pair of their shoes. I will look for a better entry point.

Completely annoyed with myself. I saw those shoe’s everywhere, so bought a pair about a month ago. Looked at the stock then and didn’t pull the trigger. Could have made a cool 40%, but I’ve become gun shy in this market.

As far as the shoes go, they’re very light and comfortable. I haven’t had them long enough to assess durability.


I use Hoka’s for running. The ones I bought will just be used for walking around. Their financial results recovered nicely last quarter as supply chain issues eased. They are projecting a very strong 2023.

They will get bought by one of the big guys.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm
Posts: 33821
pizza_Place: Gioacchino's
Deutsche Bank looks like they are next. They can't keep bailing these banks out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:41 am
Posts: 3417
pizza_Place: Hoagie's Pub
NWsider4-3-3 wrote:
hnd wrote:
Last 3 month or less I've been buying Tesla, Amazon, and Crowdstrike and doing well. but everything else had been broad market driven.


qqq's also up around $30 since may purchase. still picking up glw here and there. great company, so-so stock. also looking at taking a chance on an airline stock next month. was thinking of picking up s & p spyder, thought the s & p has been lagging on the 'comeback'...decided against it. will play the risky airlines. for a trade, not investment.


qqq's up over $100 from my last 2 purchases. glw hasn't done anything (lcd glass slump and lead in fiber optic cable scare) except pay a 3.3% yield on it's dividends. boeing is up nearly $100 a share since i bought them..tomorrow is their earnings and we'll see. the street is expecting more cash flow and good guidance for the rest of the year.

never picked up any airline...i had picked up an inveso etf that is in the software/AI sector. psj. they just had a 3-1 forward split and this sector is going to make people some money.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
Meta has been a triple since I recommended it here. We’ll see if it pulls back on earnings. ONON has started to move again. I keep waiting for Under Armor or someone like that to buy them out. All but Verizon have been good picks here. PayPal has not moved so an opportunity cost. IBM and GPK have been solid.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm
Posts: 41382
Location: Small Fringe Minority
pizza_Place: John's


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 7:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm
Posts: 41382
Location: Small Fringe Minority
pizza_Place: John's
Looking like a bloodbath today


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:42 am
Posts: 4773
pizza_Place: Home Run Inn
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm
Posts: 33821
pizza_Place: Gioacchino's
Jim Cramer said Nasdaq futures dropping isn't the end of the world so it pretty much is. We were warned.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 31723
pizza_Place: What??
ehh....It's an election year and there's a dem in the White House. Even if it takes an emergency Fed meeting to drop interest rates or the treasury to start printing. The can WILL get kicked down the road.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 11:32 am 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 81466
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
The fundamentals of the economy are strong.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 31723
pizza_Place: What??
Nas wrote:
The fundamentals of the economy are strong.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/true- ... 8-cc89ea6b

Interest rates should be 1 percentage point over CPI rate. Borrowing is too high relative to the economy. Might get a full percentage drop in September to push President-Elect Muffy over the finish line.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 82289
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
good dolphin wrote:
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.


Lol if your kid is close to college aged, the you should have been heavy in cash and fixed income. Brightstart has age index funds that work well.

If your kid is five years or more from college, then it is great because you are buying in at lower prices. Stocks on sale.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:00 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 79637
Location: Ravenswood Manor
pizza_Place: Pete's
denisdman wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.


Lol if your kid is close to college aged, the you should have been heavy in cash and fixed income. Brightstart has age index funds that work well.

If your kid is five years or more from college, then it is great because you are buying in at lower prices. Stocks on sale.



Recessions are great! FUCK DRUMPF!

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:08 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 81466
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
denisdman wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.


Lol if your kid is close to college aged, the you should have been heavy in cash and fixed income. Brightstart has age index funds that work well.

If your kid is five years or more from college, then it is great because you are buying in at lower prices. Stocks on sale.



Recessions are great! FUCK DRUMPF!


America is still recovering from Trump's COVID policies, even though we are faring better than the rest of the world. Yes, Fuck Trump!

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:36 pm
Posts: 19397
The Dow Jones will be fine.

_________________
Frank Coztansa wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
Not over yet.
Yes it is.


CDOM wrote:
When this is all over, which is not going to be for a while, Trump will be re-elected President.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:17 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 79637
Location: Ravenswood Manor
pizza_Place: Pete's
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
denisdman wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.


Lol if your kid is close to college aged, the you should have been heavy in cash and fixed income. Brightstart has age index funds that work well.

If your kid is five years or more from college, then it is great because you are buying in at lower prices. Stocks on sale.



Recessions are great! FUCK DRUMPF!


America is still recovering from Trump's COVID policies, even though we are faring better than the rest of the world. Yes, Fuck Trump!



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay. Anything bad that happens is due to DRUMPF's policies. Anything good that happens is due to the drooling genius "Prop Joe."

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Kash, and Don


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm
Posts: 41382
Location: Small Fringe Minority
pizza_Place: John's
I figured out why Nas calls him "Prop" Joe

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:40 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 81466
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
denisdman wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.


Lol if your kid is close to college aged, the you should have been heavy in cash and fixed income. Brightstart has age index funds that work well.

If your kid is five years or more from college, then it is great because you are buying in at lower prices. Stocks on sale.



Recessions are great! FUCK DRUMPF!


America is still recovering from Trump's COVID policies, even though we are faring better than the rest of the world. Yes, Fuck Trump!



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay. Anything bad that happens is due to DRUMPF's policies. Anything good that happens is due to the drooling genius "Prop Joe."


It's a fact. Trump's Covid policies were harmful to the economy. Biden steered America in a better position then the rest of the world, but we aren't completely in the clear yet. We're in better shape than the rest of the world because of Biden's leadership and America's general greatness.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:06 am
Posts: 6866
good dolphin wrote:
kids didn't need to go to college, anyway.


Just paid my kids first semester of classes today. Hopefully Dems will reimburse me for the simple price of my soul.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 3:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm
Posts: 41382
Location: Small Fringe Minority
pizza_Place: John's


On MSDNC airways nonetheless


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 33079
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
conns7901 wrote:
The Dow Jones will be fine.


Yup.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am
Posts: 65818
Location: Darkside Estates
pizza_Place: A cat got an online degree.
denisdman wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
The Dow Jones will be fine.


Yup.

Thank God it's being forcefed all that sweet subsidized money.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014
bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2225 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 71, 72, 73, 74, 75  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group