COATCH IS THE GLORY, MY FRIEND!! HE SHALL NEVER BE BEYOND IT!!!







No. That's on Fox isn't it?

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You know me like that.

I'll throw my two cents in here for shits and giggles.

The problem that I have with Chicago Bears fans and their whole "Ditka argument" is the fact that, regardless of the number of stats thrown around and the (few) good points brought up about why Ditka was a good coach, the fact remains that he isn't coming back now or ever. That is such an obvious realization, yet most Bears fans refuse to pick up on it.

Now, I understand that the good Doc is simply stating that there is nothing wrong with wanting another coaching style like Ditka's, and I agree. I think that anyone with any amount of success in their position should be emulated by those that attempt to walk in his or her footsteps during later years. However, the fact still remains that there will never be another "Ditka", just as there will never be another "Payton".

Those fans who continuously rely on remembering yester-year and hindsight are like the 40-year-old ex high school football players who still talk about the homecoming game when they rushed for 300 yards on one leg. It doesn't matter anymore, but it was pretty cool back then.

ESPN.

Your bolded statements are parsing what I say and ignoring the meaning. I'm not saying he never made a bad call or had a bad season. My statement was that ultimately those decisions did not matter. They were not the best playoff team in 1986 or 1988.

Who took over a better team? Ditka or Lovie? (Lovie) Why can't I compare them? Lovie even had a head start. Are you blaming Angelo then for where they are today?

I never understand why people don't get that you draft for the team that the COACH wants. Ditka wanted to run the ball, for example. So, they drafted a ton of linemen. Why no credit for taking 6th and 8th round draft picks and making them into solid offensive linemen? I don't get that Ditka had no part in getting that team together and forming them into a dominant squad. It just happened? On it's own? People act like they were a Super Bowl team in 1981 that Ditka just was handed the playbook for it. It's ridiculous.

Why can't any of these people play Lovie's defense? What was wrong with Chris Harris? Maybe it's just too hard to understand how their college game will translate to this system - Rod Wilson, Dvorcek, Jamar Williiams, Manning, Bazuin, Okwo. Is this Angelo or Lovie? I don't know. I'm not saying Lovie is horrible. I don't even want to fire him.

But the philosophy is what the GM is drafting to and I think evidence proved out that it might be easier to find guys to do one thing over another. Keep it simple sometimes.

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You know me like that.

Can we talk about something less controversial, like abortion?

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Fire Phil Emery

No one likes to talk with me about Chester Frazier looking to take too many shots.

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You know me like that.

C'mon, that sounded a bit too much like Bernsie trying to make a point, yet sounding silly himself. I think its fair to say there are some dumb meatball Bears fans pining for Ditka to be brought back, but most Bears fans are not calling for him to come back nor do they want him back.

Nas - Smart Boston basketball fans will realize Doc Rivers had a minimal impact on this Celtics team. Certainly in-game situations this is true, although he probably had a positive impact on the attitudes and locker room. I still think Tom Thibodeau was more responsible coaching-wise than Doc. Similar to KC Jones not being nearly the best coach in the Assosication in 1986 when the Celtics had one of the best teams of all time.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That was not true in Chicago before Ditka showed up at least in my lifetime.

Ditka came up short several times but at least his teams were in a position to come up short.

He didn't come up short once.

Ditka aside. I still like that style of football more than what I've seen from the Bears the past few years. I've seen it be effective in the '80s, the '90s, and with other franchises (unfortunately) in the '00s.

It still works.

We don't do it.

Some people want to.

They aren't meatballs.

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You know me like that.

Has Billicheck done anything to "Change" the game of football?

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Just look at alot of the top teams. Carolina, Tennessee, Pittsburgh, Giants all have really good smash-mouth lines which leads to strong running games and strong defenses. The Vikings too, but their QB situation is just so awful it will limit them in close games when you need to convert a 3rd and 8. I see what Ken is saying, and I think his point is being overlooked by the necessity to argue the merits of Ditka. He was bringing up a larger point. By assembling great lines, attacking the line from a defensive standpoint, and getting more than 1 good RB, you can win like that.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Without getting into the technical details, yes, he has.

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Fire Phil Emery

As a capper, if you are asking me if I'd rather have a Bill Walsh-type that will reinvent the game and discover the wild 8 WR offense with combo-tackle eligible blocking schemes that everyone will emulate and they'll be talking about 75 years from now, sure I would. Who wouldn't?

But, if I just realistically want a coach with a philosophy that will keep his teams competitive, that doesn't try to be a genius, just a football coach. That would be OK too. Maybe Lovie is that guy. Maybe he isn't. But one guy like that worked in Chicago. I don't remember his name. But I liked his ideas.

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You know me like that.

I've heard analysts say defenses are playing too agressive -- blitzing too much and getting exposed in the secondary, overpursuing plays and leaving cutback lanes open -- so I don't think you can go so far as to say that nobody has ever suggested it.

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

The Hoodie my friend.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I'd say his first game-changing innovation was completely shutting down the 2001 Rams Greatest show on Turf with the 7 DB formation and pretty much having the entire league realize that type of offense wasnt going to win in the playoffs, and then following it up by doing the same thing to a similar offense in Indy, forcing them to change the way they played offense and spend more money on defensive personell in the process.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

"is she right?"

I haven't kept up with every post here and I'm sure my comments will (and maybe should) get lost in the shuffle, but...

To anyone claiming the Bears had the best talent in the league for years-on-end throughout the 80s... are you on crack? First of all, ALL of the Superbowl-caliber talent was on one side of the ball (the defense obviously), with the exception of Payton, who was on the decline during the Superbowl window. The window was from 85-87. In 86, their only halfway-decent QB was MIA for the playoffs. Same for 87, and that year was also riddled by the strike. By 88, the window had mostly closed on the defense, and you had Mike Tomczak as your QB. Give me a break.

In other words, with a decent QB ready to go for the playoffs in 86 and 87, and no strike, the Bears may very well have won one or two additional Superbowls.

To be clear, I'm not one who pines to relive that era in today's game. I'm merely defending Ditka for what he was in his time. To completely dismiss what he did back then is rather shortsighted. He was not just a raving assnut. And he wasn't given a Superbowl-lock team year after year after year wrapped up in a bow. Come on.

Single-handedly responsible for Bonnie Bernstein switching networks and being confined to studio shows.

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They should have won back to back superbowls. That's my only knock against him really.

I don't know what he did but those players played until his ego got in the way and he lost the team. He was a good coach and became a not good coach. He brought something I have not seen in almost 20 years under Wanne, Jauron, and Lovie and I cannot say those 3 were ever good coaches.

It was no secret how Ryan and Ditka felt about each other, neither are what most would consider great guys, but they found a way to at least co exist to win. This makes me dislike lovie more.

OK. Ditka got rid of Noah Jackson, Ricky Watts and a bunch of malcontents and scrubs who didn't belong on a decent NFL roster. Ditka was briefly able to see the obvious, run Walter and let the D do their thing. There was beauty in the simplicity of Bear football. On offense, it was smashmouth behind one of the best O-lines of the 80's, and on D it was pressure, pressure and more pressure.

But, Ditka was(IMO):

One of the most divisive coaches (in his own locker room to boot),

A poor in-game coach (IIRC, there weren't too many close wins under da Coatch),

Completely unaware of the evolving offensive schemes, rising talent and even other coaches' tendencies,

As as big a self-promoting blowhard (who) hung many a player out to dry if they either had contract disputes (like he did) or seemingly even challenged him for promotional opportunities,

A hypocrite that demanded respect (but didn't give any) and believed an earned aura of nobility engulfed him, despite his numerous shortcomings,

A meatball that routinely parroted the whorish "50's and 60's were the greatest/toughest/best era of football", when by all objective and most subjective measures they weren't...but, the misguided notion gave(still gives) him cachet in the meatball community.

A beneficiary of Halas' nearly too late in life recognition that he was the current version of Al Davis. (to quote Jerry Krause, organizations DO win championships)

And finally, having lived that period as well, the poor state of the Bears was bemoaned as results of the: 1) death of Muggs Halas, 2) declining health of Papa Bear, 3) poor/cheap decisions made by the team, 4) a generally poor scouting staff for 10-12 yrs., 5) the loss of a coin flip that sent Bradshaw to Pitt and Bobby Douglass(?) here.

Finks, Vainisi, solid scouting, the coordinators that were 'forced' upon Ditka and a horrid NFC Central turned that around, with only a supporting nod to Coach Jackass at best.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Ditka is responsible for one of the worst decisions in Bears history.

First I liked McMahon but he had to have his quarterback immediately so they drafted him in 1982 instead of waiting a year.

Can you imagine the mid 80s Bears with Marino, Elway or Kelly behind center?

I had forgotten how easy-going Buddy Ryan was and what a great work environment he provided for Ditka. As you say, Ryan was forced upon Ditka.


Reread the thread Reader, apparently Ditka's on-the-field talent was so far beyond the rest of the league that no team could stay with them. The Washington playoff game in '84 was a close game. So, now he is punished because his teams had a tendency to blow out the other teams? If Bill Walsh had so many blowouts it would be due to his genius and gameplanning. How you lose is a bogus argument. If you lose close games, you are a poor game coach. If you lose blowouts, you can't gameplan. There's no winning for losing.


I thought Ditka had nothing to do with the defense? So, (and this argument is for others in this thread, Reader, not necessarily you) when Ditka's teams won easily it was because of everything except Ditka and when they lost it was Ditka's fault? It was that vaunted defense that blew a 14-0 lead to the Redskins in the playoffs - you know, the one that was so uber-talented that Ditka couldn't even mess it up.


Nobody's perfect.


What player that had earned respect in that league was not given it? Payton? Fencik? Hampton? Singletary? Or are we talking about the Cap Boso's of the world?

So, even if he did, these guys are getting paid. I'm tired of their delicate sensibilities being offended. I work in an office - sometimes a boss gives you a hard time and may even disrespect you. Thicken your skin - you're a football player.


You never hear McMichael or LT (the original) or any of those guys saying the league isn't what it was in the '80s. He's not the first or last guy to look upon his own game as the NFL at its best.


I'm not sure what that means.


OK. Buddy Ryan's 1988 Eagles team was "more talented" than the Bears that year. Why didn't Ditka's ineptitude rear its head in that playoff game? Ryan, Jerome Brown, Reggie White, Clyde Simmons, Eric Allen, and the boys should have destroyed Ditka's simplistic gameplan and style, especially since you couldn't throw the ball effectively. But, the Great Buddy Ryan threw it 50+ times that game I think. He must have been a great advisor to Ditka.

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You know me like that.

I see no mention in this entire thread of the best coach in Bears history, Clark Shaughnessy. Had it not been for him and Paddy Driscoll, the Bears would have continued down the path of Halas and his single wing offense. 1938 was the turning point for the Bears. Up till that point Halas had won with pure talent and a superior blocking line and running back-Nagurski doing the blocking and Feathers doing the running. They had exceptional ends in Luke Johnsos, Bill Hewitt and Bill Karr, plus the best placekicker in football at that time, Jack Manders, not to mention Red Grange in a reduced role. Had it not been for Clark, Sid Luckman would have been working for a trucking line in Buffalo and George McAfee would have been running track in the Olympics. The defense would have been all right (Stydahar, Turner, Fortmann) but it took a genius like Shaughnessy to make Halas look good. Halas was a moron, a football buffoon who benefited from advance scouting in the early days and built teams that were so talented, even his own ego couldn't ruin all of them. Clark took the Bears through their golden age and there hasn't been a Bears coach since to compare to him.

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

So, besides acting like an embarrassment and switching the word offense with defense he's Tony Dungy?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Maybe.

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Fire Phil Emery

Actually, now that I think about it, no. I don't think Dungy is a legendary coach, but 1.) he was tremendously successful at the coordinator level, 2.) NFL defensive schemes have changed tremendously on account of his influence, 3.) He has had a robust coaching "tree", from Herm Edwards to Lovie Smith to Omar Epps to Rod Marinelli and others. Not all those coaches have been successful, just like not everyone on the Walsh tree has been. But he's been a more significant coach than Ditka.

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Fire Phil Emery

They're both pretty religious it seems.

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Somebody should cut that tree down. It produces stubborn rotten fruit.

But, in your specific quote, it's nearly identical except for the obvious different conference name and different coaches.

He has clearly been outcoached by Belichick. You may say the same about Bill Cowher. Dungy was a defensive coach who has failed to field an adequate defense except for a great 4 game stretch the year they won the Super Bowl. If you add in his time at Tampa you once again see better teams losing to teams that aren't as good.

Also, isn't Monte Kiffin given as much credit for the defense as Tony Dungy was?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!