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Are Chesterpeter and people like him douchebags
Yes 32%  32%  [ 6 ]
No 26%  26%  [ 5 ]
I know Battlecat's other name 42%  42%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 19
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:18 am 
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"Mr. Darkside, for $8.50/tire we can fill your tires with Nitrogen, which will result in less wear and tear of the tires, less corrosion of the wheels, better gas milage, and Nitrogen tires stay filled longer."

All right. It's my fault for bringing my car to a chain oil change place, I accept that. I've got excuses. I'm busy. I'm on-call this week. It's cold and rainy. Those excuses suck. I just wanted someone else to change my damn oil this time.

The manager, we'll call him Peter so that I don't use his real name, Chester Halson. Peter asked me how my wipers were (fine), when the last time I changed my fuel filter was (5k miles ago), have I seen my cabin air filter (I have, and it's funny, you vacuum them for 4 seconds and they work like new), and would I like nitrogen tires?

Nitrogen Tires? Wow, that sounds so scientific. Nitrogen tires. Sounds like Nitro. And that means something fast, kind of doesn't it? Well, Chester, I mean Peter, tell me about nitrogen tires. "Well, Nitrogen is a larger, denser molecule than Oxygen, which is what makes up air. Since it is a larger Molecule, it won't escape the porus walls of the rubber tires, maintaining your tire pressure longer, thus saving YOU gas! Maybe up to 10% of your milage. Also, it's non-flammable, that's why aircraft and the space shuttle use nitrogen tires. Also, nitrogen dispaces water vapor, which will prevent your wheels from corroding."

Fact check, Chester, um, Peter. Isn't air something like 80% Nitrogen already? I mean, oxygen doesn't exactly "make up air" does it? Also, something tells me that Nitrogen is actually a lighter less dense molecule than oxygen. And even if it were true that it less likey to escape the tire itself and I were running say 20 PSI instead of the recommended 30 (which is something I would never allow to happen anyway, but some people don't check their tire pressure regularly so whatever) the common figure I've seen is something like 5% fuel savings.

Well, I'll give Chester some... damn I mean Peter, some credit here. They do use nitrogen filled tires for the space shuttle and for aircraft. However, a space shuttle tire must maintain integrity in ridiculous environments, from the brutal environment in orbit to the 300 MPH landing speed. They handle 695 Lbs of load per lb of tire, compared to about 114 for a truck, even less on my car. Something tells me my car doesn't need to operate in a near vacuum and at 300 miles per hour.

Chester is also right about the water vapor. Nitrogen would displace water vapor, but I haven't seen an iron wheel in probably 20 years, and my car is equipped with alloy wheels, which after 7.5 years of being parked outdoors have not shown a speck of corrosion. Also, less water vapor would create more stable pressures when you're talkin about raising temperatures well over 100 degrees which under non insane driving conditions would be extremely rare and even when experiencing a chance in pressure it would be so minor as to not have any significant effect on the tire, the driving experience, nor any change in efficancy of the vehicle.

Since my everyday air is already 80% nitrogen I declined. Che.. ah Peter tells me I'll be back wishing I had gotten Nitrogen in my tires and I'm making a big mistake. How many people are sold on nitrogen tires? People aren't that dumb are they? Wouldn't people sold nitrogen tires be less likely to check their tire pressure, and add, gulp, "reglular" air to keep a safe tire pressure?
For $34 for nitrogen all around, I don't see anywhere near $37 worth of rubber, fuel, of safety coming back.
So, Chester Peter, I call you a douche.
Then, on my way home, I saw a Shell gas station that is now selling "Nitrogen Enriched" gasoline...

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:26 am 
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I think the nitrogen filled tires are six on one hand, half-dozen the other. I decided to go ahead have my car's tires filled with it when I got new ones. They have held their pressure without fail despite changes in temperature for a long time. The way the guy explained it to me is that the nitrogen expands and contracts less than the oxygen due to temperature fluctuations. Plus, nitrogen is drier than "air" because the condensation is higher with oxygen. Although I'm not a fan of NASCAR, they must use it in their tires for some benefit - so possibly the better fuel mileage and longer tire life are true as well.

The big negative is that if you do have a tire go low, you pretty much have to go back to the guy who filled it in the first place for a free top-up, or just use air and defeat the purpose.

I say not a douche for suggesting it, but vote douche for the hard sell.

Now the one that I refuse is "safety siping" on my new tires, where they cut additional sipes into the tread for better wet/snow grip. Sorry, but I think the engineers at Continental knew what they were doing when they designed my tire, and cutting additional slits will surely only shorten tread life.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:27 pm 
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I would say those willing to pay 8.50 to fill their tires with air are more douchey than the salesman.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:34 pm 
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I've posted this before, but a friend of mine in high school who worked at a gas station once got people to pay him $25 to replace the "winter" air in their tires with "special" "summer" air.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:07 am 
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Nas wrote:
Killer V wrote:
I've posted this before, but a friend of mine in high school who worked at a gas station once got people to pay him $25 to replace the "winter" air in their tires with "special" "summer" air.


You're shitting me?


He'd never shit you, you're his favorite turd.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:48 am 
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Killer V wrote:
I've posted this before, but a friend of mine in high school who worked at a gas station once got people to pay him $25 to replace the "winter" air in their tires with "special" "summer" air.

ah yes...your "friend".

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:13 am 
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If nitrogen filled tires are superior, why don't they come filled with nitrogen when you originally buy them or when you buy a new car?

Your car tires were designed to work with standard air.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:58 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If nitrogen filled tires are superior, why don't they come filled with nitrogen when you originally buy them or when you buy a new car?

Your car tires were designed to work with standard air.


If slotted and cross drilled brake rotors are superior, why don't they come standard when you buy your (not really expensive) car? Because of cost.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:58 am 
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Can someone remind me who it was that was always saying we needed to reconsider what is and isn't DB worthy? :scratch:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:59 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If nitrogen filled tires are superior, why don't they come filled with nitrogen when you originally buy them or when you buy a new car?

They did, over 80% nitrogen.
What a sales concept... "Now with 80% NITORGEN!"

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:00 am 
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RFDC wrote:
Can someone remind me who it was that was always saying we needed to reconsider what is and isn't DB worthy? :scratch:

You'd rather I went after some political figures, KS? :lol:
**edit**
you can always vote no, or vote for another DOTW candidate too.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:03 am 
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Darkside wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Can someone remind me who it was that was always saying we needed to reconsider what is and isn't DB worthy? :scratch:

You'd rather I went after some political figures, KS? :lol:
**edit**
you can always vote no, or vote for another DOTW candidate too.


Well I am sure since EVIL Jack gets to set the DOTW candidates that this one will make it, otherwise it would not have a chance in hell.

No worries tho EVIL, everyone has a slump. I am sure you will return to your usual .250 average soon. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:07 am 
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Johnny Chimpo wrote:

If slotted and cross drilled brake rotors are superior, why don't they come standard when you buy your (not really expensive) car? Because of cost.

Yeah, and you can also go buy a cold air intake or one of those little air intake vortex fans. Just because it's an add on later doesn't mean that it does what it's supposed to.
Putting pure nitrogen in tires is utterly pointless unless you're talking an aircraft tire or a space shuttle tire or maybe on funny cars and race cars likt that. It's not going to keep the tires inflated any longer (as ambient temperature has more to do with pressure flux than anything else, 10 degrees F = 1 lb of pressure, so if it's a 70 degree day and a 40 degree night you're losing 3 psi due to temp changes anyhow).
Nirogen upsells is more expensive than the cost of the difference in say rubber replacement or in fuel savings. If you check your tires once a week like you're supposed to anyhow you'd never really stray much from recommended PSI anyhow, but if yuou've got fancy extra 20% nitrogen, you're going to have to DRIVE on that underinflated tire to get somewhere that sells Nitro, and pay for it on top of that.
It's a scam folks, the automotive version of a monster cable.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:11 am 
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RFDC wrote:
No worries tho EVIL, everyone has a slump. I am sure you will return to your usual .250 average soon. 8)

Just for fun, here's how I decide on DOTW candidates....
You're in if you have:
Over 15 replies
A quality "second"
A poll with over 50% agreement
Originality (fire and passion points)
Pictures?

Things that get overlooked:
One or two replies (no interest)
Shot of the day (taking political shots tends to be ignored)
Anything by cubbiesgirlshamus

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:13 am 
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Johnny Chimpo wrote:
If slotted and cross drilled brake rotors are superior, why don't they come standard when you buy your (not really expensive) car? Because of cost.

So you are saying that the cost of nitrogen is too high for them to fill it with? A $20,000 car can't afford the $34 of retail nitrogen(likely much less when bought in bulk and not having as much overhead) it would take?

If nitrogen filled tires actually provided a benefit it would be put into new cars and placed on the sticker as "Nitrogen filled tires".

The fact remains that unless you show me something different your car tires were designed for normal air. They will work just fine with normal air in them and therefore nitrogen won't make a difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:13 am 
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Darkside wrote:
Anything by cubbiesgirlshamus


Now this is something we can agree on. :thumleft:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:55 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So you are saying that the cost of nitrogen is too high for them to fill it with? A $20,000 car can't afford the $34 of retail nitrogen(likely much less when bought in bulk and not having as much overhead) it would take?


Exactly. The auto buyers haggle down to the 3rd decimal point of a dollar on every part on the car (that I have seen). Its all about cutting cost even at the expense of quality.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:18 pm 
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I say the whole "quickie oil change" industry should be DB'd for promoting the now widely held belief that most cars need the oil changed every 3,000 miles. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
I say the whole "quickie oil change" industry should be DB'd for promoting the now widely held belief that most cars need the oil changed every 3,000 miles. :roll:


That's a good one. In this era of heightened eco-awareness and resource frugality, one has to wonder why there isn't more awareness that the auto makers don't even tell you to change your oil that often. It's simply wasteful.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:29 pm 
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Johnny Chimpo wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
I say the whole "quickie oil change" industry should be DB'd for promoting the now widely held belief that most cars need the oil changed every 3,000 miles. :roll:


That's a good one. In this era of heightened eco-awareness and resource frugality, one has to wonder why there isn't more awareness that the auto makers don't even tell you to change your oil that often. It's simply wasteful.

im one of the morons who believed the 3000 mile lie...how often should i change it?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:33 pm 
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I remember (years ago) being told that you had to change your oil every 4-6K miles, depending on the type of driving you did. (Maybe that lent support to the Big 3's reliance on "functional obsolescence" as well :wink: )

Nitrogen in the tires, gas...I don't get either, but maybe I'm just old. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:35 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Johnny Chimpo wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
I say the whole "quickie oil change" industry should be DB'd for promoting the now widely held belief that most cars need the oil changed every 3,000 miles. :roll:


That's a good one. In this era of heightened eco-awareness and resource frugality, one has to wonder why there isn't more awareness that the auto makers don't even tell you to change your oil that often. It's simply wasteful.

im one of the morons who believed the 3000 mile lie...how often should i change it?

My car tells me when to change the oil (based on use, driving style, etc) and my dealer won't change it until the oil is at 85%+ of its use. Last time its was almost 7,000 miles when they changed it.

*Side note: before I get blasted about taking my car to the dealer for changes, it is included in my original warranty.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:40 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Johnny Chimpo wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
I say the whole "quickie oil change" industry should be DB'd for promoting the now widely held belief that most cars need the oil changed every 3,000 miles. :roll:


That's a good one. In this era of heightened eco-awareness and resource frugality, one has to wonder why there isn't more awareness that the auto makers don't even tell you to change your oil that often. It's simply wasteful.

im one of the morons who believed the 3000 mile lie...how often should i change it?


The owner's manual should tell you what the manufacturer thinks.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:44 pm 
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How long an oil change lasts is heavily dependant on what kind of car you drive, how you drive, where you drive.
If you have a big v8 and stop and start hard and you drive in very dusty conditions, then 3k might be right. If you drive city/country mix miles and you're easy on the gas and the brake and you're not in dust storms, 4-7k might be more appropriate. THere's no set rule.
I drive a Mustang in mostly country settings but sometimes hit traffic, I use a synthetic ever 5k and never had a lubrication issue (like bad rings or something like that.) after 100k.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Let the record show

I have never had a lubrication issue either.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:02 pm 
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When you decide to buy new tires, can the nitrogen in the old tires be released into your lawn, making it nearly as beautiful and plush as FIELD TURF???

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:12 am 
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Dear Cecil:

I caught a segment on some car show about modding up your car. One of the things they mentioned was the benefit of filling your tires with nitrogen instead of air. Considering I fill my tires with air and don't have much of a problem constantly refilling them, what is the straight dope on nitrogen in car tires?

— Dave from Massachusetts

Oh, there are plenty of benefits: (1) Cool fluorescent green valve stem caps (assuming your nitrogen vendor has any marketing savvy), which will look sharp with your spinning wheel covers. (2) Bragging rights. OK, you were behind the curve with cell phones, iPods, thong underwear, etc. Nitrogen in tires is relatively new to the mass market. Now's your chance. (3) Reduced fire danger next time you land your space shuttle or commercial aircraft, and tell me you won't sleep better knowing that.

Most tires are filled with compressed air, which when dry consists of about 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen, and 1 percent other gases by volume. Water vapor (humidity) can make up as much as 5 percent of the volume of air under worst-case conditions. Filling your tires with nitrogen mainly does two things: it eliminates moisture, and it replaces skinny oxygen molecules with fat nitrogen molecules, reducing the rate at which compressed gas diffuses through porous tire walls. That means, theoretically at least, that a tire filled with nitrogen retains optimal pressure longer, leading to more uniform tire wear and better gas mileage. The commonly quoted figure is that tires inflated to 32 psi get 3 percent better mileage than at 24 psi.

Does nitrogen make any practical difference? You couldn't prove it by me. I found no scientific tests showing that nitrogen-filled tires stayed inflated longer than average under normal conditions. A car-buff buddy was sure it worked but conceded he had only anecdotal evidence that it did.

As for moisture, changes in humidity affect tire performance two ways. First, the density of humid air fluctuates more with temperature than that of dry air, so removing humidity can keep your tire pressure more consistent, especially when the temperature climbs over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. That may be a legitimate concern in Formula One racing, but it's not much of an issue if you're just tooling around town.

Humidity can also be a factor in wheel maintenance - since pure nitrogen doesn't have moisture in it, supposedly your wheels won't rust as quickly, which could lead to improved wheel performance and air sealing. The question is, how big a problem is wheel rust these days? According to a few tire and wheel shops we contacted, not very. Seriously rusted wheels are uncommon in typical steel-wheeled cars, and many high-performance cars have alloy wheels that don't rust at all. One exception is work vehicles such as dump trucks, which are exposed to a much harsher environment.

Another claim I've seen is that since nitrogen is slightly lighter than air, you'll save weight and get better performance. However, we're talking about a weight difference of less than 4 percent of the gas in the tire - in other words, a difference of less than an ounce for most vehicles. A possibly more realistic benefit is that nitrogen is largely inert chemically at low (i.e., normal) temperatures, so it won't attack the rubber in your tires like oxygen does. Oxygen attack is something both the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Ford Research have studied, and can be a problem for tires used for a long time or in rough conditions.

More important, nitrogen doesn't support combustion, which is one reason aircraft and the space shuttle use nitrogen in their tires. The wisdom of this precaution was brought home by the crash of Mexicana Airlines flight 940 on March 31, 1986. Shortly after the Boeing 727 took off from Mexico City en route to Puerto Vallarta, an overheated landing-gear brake caused a tire improperly filled with air instead of nitrogen to overheat as well and explode, rupturing fuel and hydraulic lines. The ensuing fire and crash killed 167 passengers and crew. However, unless your driving habits are of the X-treme variety, the chances of your tires catching fire anytime soon are slim.

Overall, filling up with nitrogen won't hurt and may provide some minimal benefit. Is it worth it? If you go to some place like Costco that does it for free with new tires, sure, why not? Elsewhere, though, I've seen prices quoted as high as $10 per tire, which is way more than I'd pay. Rather than shell out for nitrogen, you'd be better off just checking and adjusting your tire pressure regularly, something the NHTSA says less than 60 percent of U.S. motorists actually do.

— Cecil Adams

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