Grudens problem was that he won a Super Bowl with a very average Brad Johnson at QB. As a matter of fact, Gruden had nothing but mediocre QB's while he coached at TB. But Gruden began to think he was smarter than he actually is, & thought that he could out-scheme his opponents. His system is somewhat complicated, but perhaps his QB wasn;t the sharpest knife in the drawer either.
But I like Grudens resume & the success that he has had. The fact that he is a great interview & knows how to handle the media is a bonus.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Scorehead, Jon Gruden wasn't the only head coach that had an average QB in Brad Johnson that won a Super Bowl. Let's not forget that in 2000, Brian Billick had a journeyman QB who's now one of the many NFL analysts on the ESPN payroll, Trent Dilfer. Would you rather have someone with an offensive pedigree in Billick whose Baltimore Ravens' defense the year they won it all was considered among the NFL's best defenses of all time?

Lets throw Pep Hamilton in too.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

I know, but we were discussing Gruden. I haven't even considered Billick...I forgot he is available.
Billick certainly has fire & passion!

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

No you aren't. I have pointed out several times that Shanny has done nothing post Elway. He was a great coach when he had a HOF QB, RB, & TE. Since then he did not do anything special at all. And if you look at the records of him and Lovie over the last few years, Lovie has a better record.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I'm not on the fire Lovie bandwagon, but going .500 after a Super Bowl appearance is unacceptable.

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Whether it's "unacceptable" or not, it's pretty much been the norm. Almost all the guys mentioned here did worse than that. Cowher went .500 after he won the Super Bowl. Gruden did much, much worse. Billick was up and down. Holmgren (if memory serves) was under .500 after the Super Bowl trip. John Fox has done worse than Lovie since his trip, and Andy Reid's record is only a little bit better (I did the numbers last year, and those three were neck-and-neck through the end of the season).

Pretty much the only exceptions to the rule are Bellicheck and Dungy, and there's a reason for that.

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Fire Phil Emery

There's a big difference between Cowher, Holmgren, Billick, and Gruden vs. Lovie Smith.

They won their Super Bowls.

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BFD. Shanahan would be a better coach today becaise he won two Super Bowls over a decade ago? Holmgren's was even further than that (and I was thinking of the second SB... the unsuccessful one).

Besides, I have a feeling that if the Bears won the Super Bowl, people wouldn't be saying "you know what, .500 is totally cool". You know how I know that? It's not what they said about any of those coaches as soon as things turned south.

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Fire Phil Emery

Yeah: Shanahan, Gruden

With Reservations: Cowher

Nay: Everybody else.

Why are you sold on Shanny, Spaulding? Unless he is bringing a 90s Elway and Davis, then he has not done anything.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

And Gruden has an awful record since 2002. Well below .500, and zero playoff victories.

But, yeah, fire and passion.

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Fire Phil Emery

I dont think Shannahan is a bad coach. But I agree his sucess was more due to the talent he had. No thanks to Gruden and his 40 year old QB fetish and SHARK length offense. Cowher is interesting, he coached in the rare situation where he had control and crazy job security. Not sure how he would do outside of Pitt. I kinda feel like this discussion is futile. Weird things happen, coaches you thought were good end up terrible. Coaches you thought were terrible end up being Bill Bellichek. I mean Patriot fans were probably ripping that hire.

I'm not so sure that Bill Cowher wants to leave the New York studio and return to coaching like so many have speculated since "retiring" from the Pittsburgh Steelers to join CBS Sports and "The NFL Today". The only way Cowher returns to coaching full time hinges on whether a team makes the kind of offer that gets him away from Dan Marino & Shannon Sharpe's big mouth once and for all. I think Cowher likes it in the confines of the CBS studio...

I think he is a good coach and gets quite a bit out of his players talent there or not. I didn't ever follow the Broncos but I've always thought of them as a solid team. Greise and Plummer were the qb there after Elway and I don't know how far you could go with them anyway. Was it 05 they went to the AFC championship game? His last 3 years they never really had a running back.

We need an offensive minded coach right now. They cannot waste Cutler and those draft picks given up for him.

Thinking about it more I might put Gruden in with reservations. It's not so much the fire an passion but I think he did a good job out in Oakland, but not so much in Tampa, and I like him.

So inspite of his poor record, you just think he is then? If he had the same record here in chicago over the last few years as he had in Denver, you would be ready to fire him.

I blame this kind of stuff on ESPN and other sports outlets. They are always shoving down our throats who are the football gurus/geniuses and so many people take it in hook line and sinker.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

IB...Lets say that you are the GM of the Chicago Bears right now with the current roster, & you are tasked with hiring a coach from the following list:

Lovie Smith
Mike Holmgren
Brian Billick
Mike Shanahan
John Gruden
Bill Cowher

Who do you hire?

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

I think Gruden is a really smart guy. I think he has no ability to delegate, burns himself out, and his players hate him, especially on offense. He also had the benefit of Monte Kiffin down in TB, who is genuinely one of the smartest people in football. Gruden would be a great coordinator if his ego allowed it, but frankly life in the booth is a lot less stressful, and pays as well.

Shanahan is no longer anything more than a CEO. His great running system wasn't his, but Alex Gibbs's. He's had decent offenses, decent defenses, but they'd come and go, and his teams would never perform with any degree of consistency. People in Chicago would hate Shanahan after about 3 weeks.

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Fire Phil Emery

My order:

Cowher
Smith
Shanahan
Gruden
Billick
Holmgren

But I also have a generally low opinion of retread coaches, and would rather, all in all, see some new blood if you make a change than just hire some guy because he went to the Super Bowl when I was in grade school.

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Fire Phil Emery

Its fun to pretend but no coaching search involves a list of retreads. Thats not how hiring is done and it really means nothing to this discussion. How many coaches have won super bowls with 2 teams? Fuck these dinosaurs, who are the up and coming coordinators? EDIT: I swear I wrote that in before I saw My Favorite Poster and Hero post. Sorry for the echo.

But the Bears have hired "new blood" rookie head coaches...Wanny, Jauron, & Lovie, each of which had one good year & a bunch of mediocre to bad years. I would like to see them hire a proven pro rather than taking a chance on yet another unproven rook because their track record isn't very good.
I am very surprised that you rank Lovie 2nd on your list. I have him in the 6 spot.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

People don't know, and they won't know until near the playoffs when they start getting told who they are. Bring back Chico!

(If you absolutely had to twist my arm, I'd say get Jim Harbaugh from out at Stanford. But that's going to make people's heads explode, so I won't say it. I didn't say it.)



Data is not the plural of anecdote. And you should spend some time talking with people in Seattle, Tampa, et al.

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Fire Phil Emery

I don't necessarily like the retreads either. I just think its awful that Lovie Smith is the highest paid coach in the NFL, and he's done nothing be remain mediocre since shitting the bed in the Super Bowl 2 years ago. Fuck, every other major team in Chicago (Cubs, Sox, Bulls, Hawks, even the Fire) have made the playoffs at least once since then.

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Just for cathartic fun, I'm going to list Dick Jauron's record...

1999 Bears 6-10
2000 Bears 5-11
2001 Bears 13-3
2002 Bears 4-12
2003 Bears 7-9
2005 Lions 1-4
2006 Bills 7-9
2007 Bills 7-9
2008 Bills 7-9
2009 Bills 3-4 (TBC....)

So how do I get a head coaching job where I can have a losing record in 9 out of 10 seasons? I'd love to apply.

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"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

Actually, let me put the anecdote shoe on the other foot: who was the last "proven winner" that switched teams and had success? Dungy was hardly a proven winner, and the knock on him in Tampa was that he could never win in the playoffs. Gibbs couldn't get anything done when he came back. The Holmgren era in Seattle was largely a failure, with one good season tossed in. Seifart bombed in Carolina. Parcells never won a championship outside of New York (Parcells is a better head coach than any of the people on your list, btw). Jimmy Johnson failed in Miami.

I have no idea how Dick Jauron still has a job in the NFL.

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Fire Phil Emery

Actually I think it has been pretty good. 4 coaches, all rookies, in the past 28 years isn't many. All made the playoffs and 2 made the Super Bowl. That's not too bad. I mean we could have had the Dave McGinnis era.

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You know me like that.

The up & coming coordinatorS were all hired as the last 3 head coaches for the Bears! Now...do you still want to trust the Bears Management to once again identify who the next up & coming coordinator is for their new head coach? I have no faith in them being able to make the right decision. For God sakes, it is McCaskey & Phillips making the decision!

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Wannstedt and Jauron were bad. Smith and (yes, I'm saying this) Ditka were good. Conclusion: blanket statements are often overinclusive.

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Fire Phil Emery

No there is some critical thinking in my head. I don't want Lovie fired because of his record or his lack of fire and passion. I want him fired for his bone headed decisions.

I don't know how much they play the cover 2, IB can fill me in, but they still play zone defense. The scheme he runs requires the players we had in 2006. This team especially the offense should not be floundering this year with no sign of improvement from week to week. I expect more from one of the highest paid coaches in the league. His guys AA, Babich specifically suck ass. When I think of Lovie coaching I think of the Carolina panthers playoff game. Or Sunday when I watched Benson run all over the place and only having 6-7 guys in the box. Hey fuck face make an adjustment.

He's not the worst but he's not great.

I agree with IB on Gruden. I'm hoping time away will change him a little.

Lemme ask you this, would you rather have any of these coaches over Lovie?

I think I heard some where that the Bears play Cover 2 like 35% of the time. It's more than most teams but it's not all the time.