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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:27 pm 
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Okay. He doesn't have the personnel to run it.


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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:29 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Lemme ask you this, would you rather have any of these coaches over Lovie?


Yes on Cowher, and a maybe on Gruden.

A definite NO NO NO on Shanny and Holmgren.

But part of me hopes the Bears do get one of these guys so we can see how quickly some of you guys are bitching about them and ready to run them out of town.

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Last edited by RFDC on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:29 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
I want him fired for his bone headed decisions.

There's plenty of them, thats for sure:

-Timeout in the Seattle playoff game
-Rex Grossman
-Challenging the 12 men on the Punt in the GB game
-Steve Smith
-Super Bowl XLI after the 1st quarter
-Rex Grossman
-Allowing Ron Turner to continue to use that handoff to the fullback on 3rd and 4th & short
-54 yard FG attempt in Seattle this year

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:30 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Scorehead wrote:
I would like to see them hire a proven pro rather than taking a chance on yet another unproven rook because their track record isn't very good.


Actually I think it has been pretty good. 4 coaches, all rookies, in the past 28 years isn't many. All made the playoffs and 2 made the Super Bowl. That's not too bad. I mean we could have had the Dave McGinnis era.

Wannstedt and Jauron were bad. Smith and (yes, I'm saying this) Ditka were good. Conclusion: blanket statements are often overinclusive.


It's ok to say that Ditka was a good coach. He was. And like it or not, he got the most out of his players. Remember how much fun 1985 was? I tell my kids about it, but you had to be there.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:30 pm 
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I could see Shanahan being a mistake but I'd be willing to risk it.

Rex wasn't his decision.


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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:31 pm 
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Everyone realizes that coaches don't count against the salary cap, right? I don't care how much they are paid. That money can't go anywhere else. The facilities at Halas Hall are above average by NFL standards. They're not losing out in that area.

Every team runs zone. Every team in the NFL runs zone packages. The Bears run a very aggressive, by 4-3 standards, zone blitz package. The defense is incredibly far removed from what it started as in 2005 and 2006. And to say "yeah, the defense that had that one bad game" isn't particularly fair; it's also a defense that was the best in the NFL for a good long stretch. I honestly don't know what Bears fans expect. Perfection is not attainable.

I answered the would you rather question above: I would not replace Smith with any of the coaches except for Cowher.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:31 pm 
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Maybe not, but he stuck with Rex far too long in certain games. There is nothing wrong with pulling a QB in one game, and starting him in the next.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:32 pm 
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I'm still waiting for Weis to make the leap to the NFL, I hear that the Irish are afraid that he's gonna leave

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Wannstedt and Jauron were bad. Smith and (yes, I'm saying this) Ditka were good. Conclusion: blanket statements are often overinclusive.


Wannstedt and Jauron were mediocre-to-decent coaches and with decent talent had their team at a near-to playoff caliber level.

The end of Dave and the beginning of Dick, those eras were saddled with a 6-8 year legacy of tremendously bad drafts. Look at those '90s drafts again and you'll wonder how they ever won a game at all with that "talent".

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:33 pm 
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So the Bears are gonna eat the 9 million left on the Lovie deal and pay one of these coaches the 5 or 6 million per year that will be required? No. Not the Bears. Maybe they'll eat the last year but not the last 2 years. Lovie's make or break year will be next year. They'll give him 2 years with Cutler. Lovie can miss the playoffs this year, but not next year.


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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:33 pm 
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I'm not opposed to getting Bobby Johnson to come in for at least an interview. We've got several players familiar with him, and he always has to coach sub-par teams up to a level where they can compete with much better teams. I would also think that his current position wouldn't be like a USC, Ohio State, or Florida where you think you can stay there and be set for life.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Scorehead wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Its fun to pretend but no coaching search involves a list of retreads. Thats not how hiring is done and it really means nothing to this discussion. How many coaches have won super bowls with 2 teams? Fuck these dinosaurs, who are the up and coming coordinators? EDIT: I swear I wrote that in before I saw My Favorite Poster and Hero post. Sorry for the echo.


The up & coming coordinatorS were all hired as the last 3 head coaches for the Bears! Now...do you still want to trust the Bears Management to once again identify who the next up & coming coordinator is for their new head coach? I have no faith in them being able to make the right decision. For God sakes, it is McCaskey & Phillips making the decision!

First of all take it easy. Youre gonna give yourself skin failure. So you have faith in them to pick the right veteran coach? Maybe Zook? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
The defense is incredibly far removed from what it started as in 2005 and 2006....I would not replace Smith with any of the coaches except for Cowher.

It should be different. The players are not near the same level as they were in 2005 and 2006-- with Lance Briggs being the exception.

That would also only be the second go round for Cowher, and the 3rd for everyone else right? That might have something to do with Cowher being better as well I think.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:36 pm 
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Quote:
But part of me hopes the Bears do get one of these guys so we can see how quickly some of you guys are bitching about them and ready to run them out of town.


Savior-worship, optimism, disillusionment. Repeat as necessary.

Dr. Ken: Wannie had talent down at Miami and ran it into the ground. Also, he was very active in the drafting process. I don't know whether that was true of Jauron or not, but Wannstedt deserves a good chunk of the blame for the personnel mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:36 pm 
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I seriously see Ron Rivera as the next Bears coach. Nobody is gonna hire him after this year cuz the Chargers defense sucks. He's been off the radar of interviews after that Bears Super Bowl year.

Bears will fire Lovie after next year and get Rivera on the cheap. He'll be gratefull just to get a job. McClaskeys love him. So does Angelo. Angelo never wanted to let him go. That was all Lovie cuz he felt threatened by him.

If you remember Angelo forced Rivera on Smith when he hired him. Smith had to take it cuz he wanted the job. Then after the Super Bowl Lovie had leverage to do what he wanted.


Last edited by Beardown on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:37 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Wannstedt and Jauron were bad. Smith and (yes, I'm saying this) Ditka were good. Conclusion: blanket statements are often overinclusive.


Wannstedt and Jauron were mediocre-to-decent coaches and with decent talent had their team at a near-to playoff caliber level.

The end of Dave and the beginning of Dick, those eras were saddled with a 6-8 year legacy of tremendously bad drafts. Look at those '90s drafts again and you'll wonder how they ever won a game at all with that "talent".


I kind of agree. I often felt bad for Dick except when it came to Schoop. Wanne just always seemed crazed like he was way in over his head and his player decisions were bad
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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:37 pm 
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newper wrote:
I'm not opposed to getting Bobby Johnson to come in for at least an interview. We've got several players familiar with him, and he always has to coach sub-par teams up to a level where they can compete with much better teams. I would also think that his current position wouldn't be like a USC, Ohio State, or Florida where you think you can stay there and be set for life.

I read that as Paul Johnson, and, just for a second, ran through all the delicious possibilities of the Bears running the triple option.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
The defense is incredibly far removed from what it started as in 2005 and 2006....I would not replace Smith with any of the coaches except for Cowher.

It should be different. The players are not near the same level as they were in 2005 and 2006-- with Lance Briggs being the exception.

That would also only be the second go round for Cowher, and the 3rd for everyone else right? That might have something to do with Cowher being better as well I think.

It also has something to do with Pittsburgh being a classy organization that understands that coaches will have bad years, and that Pittsburgh fans are sophisticated enough to understand the same. The same can't be said of many other places.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Cowher's worst years were 6-10 and he had some qb issues along the way. I did love me so Mike Tomczak.


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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:47 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
I seriously see Ron Rivera as the next Bears coach. Nobody is gonna hire him after this year cuz the Chargers defense sucks. He's been off the radar of interviews after that Bears Super Bowl year.

Bears will fire Lovie after next year and get Rivera on the cheap. He'll be gratefull just to get a job. McClaskeys love him. So does Angelo. Angelo never wanted to let him go. That was all Lovie cuz he felt threatened by him.

If you remember Angelo forced Rivera on Smith when he hired him. Smith had to take it cuz he wanted the job. Then after the Super Bowl Lovie had leverage to do what he wanted.


Actually, you're on to something here. I can see the Bears doing this.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Dr. Ken: Wannie had talent down at Miami and ran it into the ground.


?? He was 41-23 his first four years there and alot of that was with Jay Fiedler. I guess you could say after 4 years of success and a couple playoff appearances, he had run them into the ground.

Or you might say that Jay Fiedler remembered that he was bad and Ricky Williams remembered that he was crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:57 pm 
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sans the last comment by ken which i was suprised to learn, ib has been on the money. I dont like agreeing with ib cuz he's a geek but he's right. And i think rick was the first to mention this but without good lines your team will not be great.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:58 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Pittsburgh fans are sophisticated enough to understand the same. The same can't be said of many other places.


Did Cowher make stupid moves like this:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
-Timeout in the Seattle playoff game
-Rex Grossman
-Challenging the 12 men on the Punt in the GB game
-Steve Smith
-Super Bowl XLI after the 1st quarter
-Rex Grossman
-Allowing Ron Turner to continue to use that handoff to the fullback on 3rd and 4th & short
-54 yard FG attempt in Seattle this year

Not saying that he didn't make bad moves or had bad years, but I don't believe for a second he made moves as bad as some of those pointed out above.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:00 pm 
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I will defend Jay Fielder to my dying breath. But, all that is besides the point: that was a team that, personnel-wise, had been built up by Jimmy Johnson. As that started to leave, Dave Wannstedt started to fail.

Maybe that means he's not an awful coach, but he wasn't willing to learn that he sucked as a talent evaluator in his first go around, and it eventually cost him in the second. I'm generally willing to cut coaches some slack when they have crappy talent, but not if they are responsible for bringing in the talent in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:03 pm 
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jay fiedler?


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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:11 pm 
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I agree. He was a bad talent evaluator but I almost don't blame coaches for that - somebody had to give them that power.

I think a coach should be a coach and a GM a GM and if an organization is stupid enough to give somebody that responsibility, that's on them. A coach usually has too much ego to realize his own limitations.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:13 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
jay fiedler?

Jay Brian Fiedler (born December 29, 1971) is a former American football quarterback in the National Football League. He was born on Long Island in Oceanside, New York. He is a distant relative of Arthur Fiedler, the long-time conductor of the Boston Pops Orchestra. Fiedler, who is Jewish, was inducted into the National Jewish Museum Sports Hall of Fame in 2002. At the time of his induction, Fiedler mentioned how strong he is in his faith. Fiedler was one of two active NFL players inducted into the Hall that year, the other being then-Pittsburgh Steelers punter Josh Miller.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:21 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:

(If you absolutely had to twist my arm, I'd say get Jim Harbaugh from out at Stanford. But that's going to make people's heads explode, so I won't say it. I didn't say it.


Any time you root for a former Bear to be hired as a coach, you are going to hear the "M" word. But the last time the Bears hired a former player as head coach it worked out pretty damn well.

I would prefer Harbaugh over Chico. I want an offensive minded head coach for once.

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Last edited by Scorehead on Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:22 pm 
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I decided to go look through some old Pittsburgh Post-Gazette articles during the first set of down years for him. This is from late 2000. It is priceless.

Quote:
It first became obvious Bill Cowher was a bad guy to work for when he fired Ron Erhardt after the 1995 season. What kind of monster fires his offensive coordinator after a Super Bowl year? [editors note: Bring back Chico!!!1!]

But at least Cowher had his reasons for that firing, unfair as it was. Erhardt was almost 65 and was thinking of retirement in a year or two. He couldn't make a long-term commitment to the Steelers. Chan Gailey, their wide receivers coach at the time, was a hot coaching prospect and Cowher didn't want to lose him. So he made Gailey the offensive coordinator and pushed out Erhardt.

If there's any justice in the world, Cowher will work for someone just as heartless when he gets older.

That brings us to the latest Cowher firing, Kevin Gilbride. It might not be as cruel as the Erhardt firing. But it makes less sense.

Actually, that's not true.

The firing has Kordell Stewart's name written all over it.

Once Cowher and the Steelers decided to bring back Stewart as their quarterback next season, Gilbride's job was in jeopardy. Who knows if Stewart asked Cowher to fire Gilbride? Or if Cowher fired Gilbride merely to appease Stewart, who still seethes at Cowher about being used as a wide receiver after he was benched as the quarterback in 1999? What's certain is that Stewart and Gilbride did not have a good relationship. Gilbride worked better with Mike Tomczak in 1999. He was much more successful with him, too. He worked better this season with Kent Graham. It was pretty clear he didn't think Stewart was smart enough to read coverages or accurate enough as a passer to be a big-time quarterback. At the very least, he didn't think Stewart was disciplined enough to make the commitment it takes to be a big-time quarterback.

I don't know about you, but I couldn't agree more with Gilbride.

Stewart was no fan of Gilbride personally. But more than that, he didn't think Gilbride's system took advantage of his skills, especially his mobility. Others in the organization -- Cowher, obviously, and perhaps even Dan Rooney and his son, Art -- didn't think so, either.

Of course, no one with the Steelers ever blames Stewart for these problems. He also didn't get along with offensive coordinator Ray Sherman during the 1998 season. Sherman had replaced Gailey, who left to become head coach of the Dallas Cowboys. Cowher fired Sherman after only that one year on his staff.

But back to Gilbride and Stewart. Give them credit for working through their difficulties. By the end of the season, Stewart was playing decent football. In comparison to his inept play in 1998 and ' 99, he was playing great football. His resurgence -- despite having nondescript receivers after the failures of No. 1 picks Troy Edwards and Plaxico Burress -- was the talk of the NFL. It gave the Steelers some hope for next season.

"Our passing game has come a long way," Jerome Bettis said last week before the final game against San Diego. "If we do make the playoffs, that will give us a chance to win."

"Kordell is playing with so much more confidence," Hines Ward said. "This is his second year in Gilbride's system. I think he's just feeling a lot more comfortable with everything."

That sounds almost laughable now, doesn't it?

There's no such thing as continuity when Cowher is doing the hiring and firing.

Stewart will play for his fourth offensive coordinator in five seasons next year. Maybe Cowher will give the job to receivers coach Bob Bratkowski or tight ends coach Mike Mularkey. That, at least, would give Stewart someone he knows and someone who knows him. Or maybe Cowher will go outside for Gilbride's replacement. If he does, he won't have any trouble finding a top coach. It's not that anyone wants to work for him. No one does. The Gilbride firing will only add to his well-known, league-wide reputation as an evil boss. It's just that there always are going to be good coaches on the rebound, looking for work and a chance to redeem themselves. Coaches such as Norv Turner, Bruce Coslet and Paul Hackett come to mind.

That's the only reason Gilbride, who had been fired as the San Diego Chargers' head coach, ignored all the warnings about Cowher and came to Pittsburgh.

He leaves knowing he resurrected his career even if Cowher and the Steelers were too blind -- or too blindly loyal to Stewart -- to see it
.


LOL. OK, maybe there are some meatballs in Pittsburgh after all. My point isn't that Cowher is a bad coach. My point is that I could do this same thing for every single head coach in the NFL and get the exact same articles. There's hundreds of them. Do you have any idea how badly Cowher was crucified after the coin toss game? (Cowher is such a bad coach that his players can't even call the coin toss right, etc.)

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 Post subject: Re: John Gruden
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:24 pm 
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what does everyone expect from the bears? The line is bad but they've made moves the last couple years to improve. It hasn't worked but they've tried. They went and got you your infallible saviour ya'll refuse to critique. Hester does look legit. Forte looked like a great pick at first. The reason i've never attempted to join a packers message board is i'm worried they will sound as football retarded as bears fans. Not everyone can have a top 5 qb and that, at the minimum, is what it would take to compete consistently. Your current qb, by your own comments, needs good to great surrounding players to do that

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