So this morning M&H were talking a lot about concussions, and the long term effects. A hillybilly-sounding caller chimed in, letting them know that after murdering his entire family, and killing himself... doctors found immense damage to Chris Benoit's brain. The cause, according to this caller... was obviously due to his long-time finishing move: the flying headbutt.


Makes sense, right?


Now I used to be just about the biggest wrestling fan around, and I have seen Benoit's flying headbutt a million times... but didn't anybody on the show stop to think about this for a second?



HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY HEADBUTT ANYONE!!! IT'S PRO WRESTLING!!!! Best case scenario, he would make light contact with the dude's shoulder.

Anyhow, I found this extremely amusing.

was the caller this guy....?

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You do realize that, while it rarely was head-to-head contact, his head did generally hit their shoulder or some meatier part of their upper torso from roughly 9' in the air. It wasn't exactly a slap with a feather.

And nobody (intelligent) said all of the brain damage he suffered was from the "flying headbutt". Long story short, there are careless (or purposeful) moments in the ring from time to time, as well as the "shit happens" times.

The second moron who called with the 'wrestling is fake' "insight" should be exterminated for getting that worked up over the topic.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Exactly. I suppose all those unprotected chair shots are fake too.

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"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." ~ H.L. Mencken

Honestly, I'm not sure it was EVER head to head contact. I know wrestlers throw caution into the wind very often... but Benoit was cushioning the fall with his hands and arms, not his head.


Drawing comparisons (even if they were vague) from the flying headbutts to killing his family is a little bit of a stretch, IMO.

second that tiny. Perfect example of "oh shit" moments would be the well documented Mick Foley's book "Have a Nice Day" Especially the one fight the Undertaker. Read this story:

Hell in a Cell - Undertaker vs. Mankind
The Hell in a Cell match at the 1998 King of the Ring between The Undertaker and Mankind (Mick Foley) has since become one of the most famous professional wrestling matches in history. In preparing for the match Mick Foley asked longtime mentor and friend Terry Funk for his advice on how to top the first Hell in the Cell, which Foley considered a great match. Funk's fateful advice was to start the match on top of the cage.

When the match started, both men climbed on top of the cage before the bell had even rung. After a short battle the Undertaker threw Mankind off the top of the cage through the Spanish announcers' table 16 feet below, narrowly avoiding monitors and other A/V equipment. Emergency medical technicians and other staff quickly rushed to his aid, while announcer Jim Ross screamed "Good God almighty, good God almighty, that killed him! With God as my witness, he is broken in half!" Foley was strapped to a gurney, and the technicians started to carry him up the entrance ramp. Meanwhile, Undertaker remained atop the cage, which had begun to rise back towards the ceiling to allow room for the EMTs to wheel Mankind away on a gurney. Even though the fall from the cage was planned and well executed, Terry Funk and Vince McMahon broke kayfabe - at the time, both were involved in feuds with Mankind - to come down ringside and check on Foley's condition. Later Foley would claim that he had introduced the idea of the throw from the top of the cage earlier in the day; Calaway at first resisted, asking him, "Mick, do you want to die?", but eventually agreed.

As he was being wheeled up the aisle, Mankind got off of the gurney, and, despite a dislocated shoulder, walked back towards the ring and climbed back on top of the cage. The match continued, even though the roof of the cage was buckling under both of them with every step they took. During the ensuing fight Undertaker chokeslammed Mankind; unfortunately and unexpectedly, a section of the cage roof gave way and Mankind fell through and into the ring where he suffered a concussion and was knocked out cold for the first and only time in his career. (At this point, Ross can be heard screaming "For God's sake, will somebody stop the damn match!"). In addition to the fall, a steel chair lying on the roof of the cage fell through with Mankind and struck him in the face from a height of thirteen feet, dislocating his jaw and knocking out one and a half teeth as well as creating a large cut beneath his lip which he was able to stick his tongue through.

A famous picture taken a few minutes after the fall through the cage depicts Mick Foley apparently smiling and licking his lips while one of his broken teeth, which he had aspirated into his sinus cavity, protrudes from his nostril. For his part, Foley claims that he was using his tongue to check and see how many teeth he had broken, and that he was in a stupor from the immense pain that was inflicted upon him.

The Undertaker jumped down through the new hole in the cage roof (despite a broken foot which he suffered before the match) and improvised some spots with Funk to give Foley a few minutes to recover. Despite suffering from a head injury, Foley was able to continue and finish the match, which ended when The Undertaker backdropped and chokeslammed Mankind onto a pile of thumbtacks and followed up with a Tombstone Piledriver, winning by pinfall. Despite his injuries Mankind managed to go ahead with his planned interference in the main event later that evening, a first blood match between Kane and Stone Cold Steve Austin.

In the end, the match left Foley with a dislocated jaw, a dislocated shoulder, a bruised kidney, bruised ribs, one and a half missing teeth, a concussion and 14 stitches for the cut beneath his lip. He took 2 months to fully recover, but the match almost certainly helped shorten his active wrestling career.

Many elements of this match, including the fall through the roof of the cage, were reused in Mick Foley's retirement match against Triple H at No Way Out. Video clips of the two brutal falls have been some of the most replayed clips on WWE television.

The Benoit situation had several extenuating circumstances. If it were simply caused by concussions, Foley would have butchered his family years ago. I remember the match with Rock, where he took 8 or 9 unprotected chair shots while handcuffed AND in front of his kids! He should've been arrested for child abuse.

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"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." ~ H.L. Mencken

All I'm saying is they took an EXCELLENT example of the risks involved in multiple concussions (albeit this one being in the extreme) and allowed it to be pissed away because as soon as someone says "pro wrestling" all the intellectuals stampede as fast as they can to get their chance to reveal that wrestling is "fake" .... and also my immense disdain for that sort of person, whomever they otherwise may be.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Won't argue with your disdain. Like I said, I'm a big fan of wrestling. I've been to a handful of Wrestlemanias, and about 50 events in total. Hell, I was even the loser who had a (pretty badass IMO) wrestling ring in my backyard. So all in all, I can have tremendous debates on the 'realness' of wrestling.


I just think, with the topic of the show being concussions... drawing conclusions to Benoit's ultimate fate back to his finishing move was silly. Now if you want to talk about the head trauma, concussions and injuries wrestlers get in the ring, I'm all for it. I can't imagine the damage done to the brain to guys like Funk and Foley, I just didn't like that caller's particular call.

You know what I miss? Those WWF Thumb Wrestlers. They were the best.

I can't wait till my son is older so I have an excuse to play with toys again...

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This is my signature...

+1. Hard to compare the 2, but I know what you mean about the Foley Rock match. Especially in Beyond the Mat, where they film Mick's wife and kid's at ringside and they are balling, screaming, etc. Why would you bring them ringside for that shit..?

Here is a very good article about Benoit and concussions.

http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?cont ... rch&page=1

talks about the headbutt and other stuff like and when they examined Benoit's brain tissue they found a 40-year-old brain that looked like that of an 85-year-old in advanced stages of Alzheimer's disease.

When I was listening to B&B yesterday talk about Tebow and concussions, I was thinking someone was gonna call-in with a Benoit comparison and then Dan would pretend how he is also an expert on Benoit and rasslin, etc.

When the "real news" talks about people donating their brain, most are going here, started by ex-wwf'r Christopher Nowinski.

http://sportslegacy.org/default.asp

http://www.sportslegacy.org/benoit_sli_news.asp

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The match with the Rock and the handcuffs was when I decided to stop watching wrestling. It was such absolute disgusting brutality... it wasn't enjoyable to watch any more. I remember thinking "eventually, they're going to try to top this, and someone is going to die in the ring with thousands of people cheering."

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Fire Phil Emery

Haven't we seen this in boxing over the years yet millions of people still watch it. And the day will come when UFC will claim its first death (if not already and I don't know about it). But unfortunately, that is the direction our society is going.

There has been a death in MMA, but it wasn't UFC - I will have to check, but I think it might have been Pride.

EDIT - I was wrong. There have been three deaths in MMA, none attributed to mainstream MMA companies. 1 was an unsanctioned fight in the Ukraine. But yes, deaths have happened, but far less frequent than in boxing.

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Does your cat make too much noise? Try KITTEN MITTENS!


Charlie: Oh shit. Look at that door dude. See that door right there? That door marked 'Pirate'? You think a pirate lives in there?
Dennis: I see a door marked 'Private.'

Boxing and UFC are at least competitions. There's something hard-wired into the brain that makes men want to compete in dangerous ways with other men (it's almost certainly sexual at its root, but that's another story). But wrestling isn't competition; it isn't sport.

Besides, the trend in both of those sports was towards safety: more regulation, more restrictions, fewer rounds (at least in boxing), etc. The trend in wrestling was moving the other way- more violence, more honest falls, more potential for really gruesome injury and even death.

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Fire Phil Emery

Where can I find a nut Foley wrestling doll?

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What I think is weird is the perception that MMA gets versus other sports.

No one has ever died in a UFC or Pride FC ring. There haven't even been any life-threatening injuries in the octagon that come to mind. The only UFC fighter in recent memory that died was Evan Tanner and that was because he got lost wandering around the desert. Even the injuries are mild compared to football / hockey.

The worst I have seen is a brutal leg fracture and dislocated jaws. Not fun of course, but when you compare it football players being paralyzed, Corey Stringer, hockey goalies getting their jugulars sliced, and baseball players getting beaned you can almost say MMA is safer than most sports. Remember Robin's broken ankle? Kendall's broken ankle? Theismann? You can even throw Dale Earnhardt into the mix but thats a stretch. Point being, when MMA is compared to other sports there is such a difference in the amount of injuries, its surprising.

Multiple boxers die every year. Plus several pro-wrestlers seem to die each year now for various reasons. You can also argue that brutal KO's in MMA are less threatening with a large portion being punches to the jaw, which won't usually result in a concussion or brain injury. (sorry tho, if you get kicked in the head, you're fakked)

More high school and college athletes die from dehydration every year than have ever died in MMA in this country ever.

MMA isn't even sanctioned in every state. It is 100% illegal in New York for example, because its too brutal or something.

It's all about perception unfortunately.

As far as Benoit, I can't even fathom how many concussions he received (regardless of how they were sustained). His brain just broke.

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The very mention of Benoits name turns my stomach.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I feel the same way when I hear the name Benoit Benjamin.

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What about Benoit Mandlebrot?

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

...or Private Benjamin.

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This is my signature...

It must have been this guy who called in...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI

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"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

I thought it was the estrogen injections that drove Benoit mad.

That guy makes it embarassing for us old school wrestling fans that still have old title belts hanging up in our basement!!! I mean nevermind.

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As a former worker myself, the flying headbutt does indeed hurt the person who is performing it. There's plenty of times, as a worker, you see where he didnt catch his timing perfectly, and for that move, you better pull it off to the letter. There's a reason why not too many are stupid enough to do it. But I would say the contact/impact would effect the persons neck more than the head. Sure its fake, but theres still impact. While his head isnt getting a brunt of the force, his neck is getting whiplashed if he mis-judges the size of the other worker, the distance, etc.

Now, you COULD make a case for the move causing trauma to the neck which would force Benoit to take even more pain killers which, with all the juice he was using could cause a chemical imbalance in his head, but Iam not a doctor.Steroids fuck with everbody differently, and I will go on record stating the roids had more to do with Benoit becoming a butcher than the shots to the head.Benoit worked a strong, japanese style in the ring, he was safe to everybody, but himself. When you are trained to take a chair shot, you either learn to put your hand up, or take it on the top of your skull. Beniot took shots on the BACK of his skull, big difference.There really isnt anyone to blame but Benoit.Benoit worked matches on emotion, and if he's giving you strong style, it didnt surprise me once when he got a legit chair shot, which happened more times than not.And he never said anything about it. He gave, but he also recieved.

As for the Foley I quit match, yeah, that is a disturbing match for the E.IMO, That match put a red hot Rock on the map for good. But, it pales in comparison to the butchers that work matches for Ian Rotten's little group of emo mutilators.I wont even link it, but there's a match between Mickie Knuckles, a moose of a broad, and some internetr mark who thought this was his big break, that turned into one of the most disgusting assault's I have ever witnessed in wrestling. They mutilate the guy into a big bloody lump, carving his back up with broken glass, disfigure his face then pour alcohol over his open wound's telling him to take it and pay his dues. That's horrible.

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I personally wonder about all the DDT-style moves that's being emphasized nowadays. We're talking frequent abuse during the course of a match.

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Middle Aged Crazy, like Uncle Terry

I can clearly remember seeing Benoit try the headbutt only to land on a chair or a title belt a few times as well.

And as already pointed out; just because someone suffers concussions do they become prone to violence. If that was the case, Troy Aikman would of killed Joe Buck on the air by now for some stupid comment or another.....