Careful, there are many here who will point out that Orton won 6 games in a row this season.

He finds a way to win!

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I don't "regret" the trade in the sense that I would still take it, but it's an awfully tough decision at this point. The trade wasn't "Kyle Orton for Jay Cutler", which, btw, is a closer call than most of you are willing to admit. The trade was a bunch of valuable draft picks and Kyle Orton for Jay Cutler.

OK, OK, I know the retort. "The Bears would waste those picks because Cedric Benson lol i hate evidence." Fine. But, at a minimum, those draft picks could have been either more, lower draft picks, which everyone tends to agree have been fairly successful, or other, more successful trades. Those draft picks have humongous value. Kyle Orton was about 20% of that trade. Saying "No the trade is good because Kyle Orton is worse than Jay Cutler" is like saying "I'd give up a first round pick and Matt Forte for Pierre Thomas because Matt Forte is bad". There's no logic there. What you're saying is "I'd rather have Jay Cutler than Kyle Orton AND a first round OT/DE/WR pick any two". To say that, and then to say "OMG there's holes on this team" is, frankly kind of retarded. Of course there are holes; part of the Jay Cutler trade thought process is that he could become a QB that's good enough to overcome all sorts of holes, a la Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Going back and complaining that there are holes that prevent Jay Cutler from being all he can be is conceding that Jay Cutler isn't as good as he should be to justify the trade.

Now, I'm willing to accept a whole bunch of extenuating circumstances that give me reason to think the trade could still be worthwhile. The fixes wouldn't really be that hard, if Jay Cutler really is as good as I thought he was. Interior line positions can be filled rather easily with mid round draft picks. You're going to have a new offensive coordinator next year, and Cutler will have input on who that person will be. The wide receivers are decent and young, which means that, at a mininimum, you're only really one very good wide receiver away from having a well-rounded offensive attack; if we all can't agree that Hester/Bennett/Knox are an acceptable 1-2-3, they are, without a shadow of a doubt, a pretty darn good 2-3-4 combo. There are solutions there. This isn't the Cleveland Browns offense.

But once again, a top QB makes the holes less obvious. Pierre Garcon went from Mount Union College to practice squad to starting WR putting up huge numbers with Peyton Manning. Hint: Pierre Garcon is not a great wide receiver. Tom Brady went to the AFC Championship Game with Jabar Gaffney as his #1 WR. Say what you will about Devin Hester as your best option at wide receiver, but Jabar Gaffney dreams of being Devin Hester. Great QBs overcome that stuff. Cutler has not. A projection that he will not or cannot is just as much of a projection about Cutler as it is about management or the rest of the team. And it is a projection that you were wrong and regret the trade.

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Fire Phil Emery

I'd listen to people regretting the draft picks but only a bumbling fumbling idiot would say Cutler isn't an upgrade over Orton esp. long term.

On paper Cutler is certainly a far better QB, but the W/L results so far don't really bear that out. JC has a total of 0 winning seasons as a starter in both college and the NFL. Overall he went 11-34 at Vandy and is 21-26 so far in the NFL.

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“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

Also, who the fuck cares about Orlando Pace? He was a veteran stopgap signing that can be easily cut next year with minimal cap ramifications. If the Cutler trade was bad, it'll set the team back for perhaps as much as a decade. That's the albatross around the neck of the organization. If it's an albatross.

Orlando Pace was a player that you all thought was good because, well, his name is Orlando Pace, you haven't watched a St. Louis Rams game except for when the Bears are playing them in three years, and because "veteran signings are always good what's the harm of bringing a guy in kick the tires cliche cliche cliche". Luckily, the team knew better than to tie themselves into a risk that has 1.) performed about as well as reasonably expected for an aging, past-his-prime offensive tackle, and 2.) has actually not been injured yet, which is a huge shock.

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Fire Phil Emery

I wonder if Jabar Gaffney every had his number called for a screen pass on 3rd and long deep in his own territory.

IB, you're getting on the excuse makers but you keep comparing Cutler to Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. In the past 10 years, Brady or Manning has not had an Oline thats even been close to as bad as the Bears line is this year, and although the D has played OK the past 2 games, Brady and Manning's D overall has been better than the Bears are this year. You're comparing Cutler to 2 of the greatest quarterbacks ever, and I don't even recall you doing that with Kyle Orton or Rex Grossman.

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Comparing Cutler to Brady or Manning is downright silly. I don't think anyone, anywhere has Cutler on their level.

No, I never compared Kyle Orton to Peyton Manning. The Bears also used only a 4th round pick on Kyle Orton. They did not give up two first round picks, a third round pick, and a viable starting NFL QB. You don't do that unless you think he can be something like Manning, or at least immediately below that level. Marc Bulger is not worth a king's bounty, even if he's better than Kyle Orton.

Also, Peyton Manning has had bad O-lines before. Some of those Colts defenses from the early part of the decade make the this Bears defense look like the Ravens in 2000. And, believe it or not, the offensive line has held up pretty well the last two weeks. Cutler had tons of time in the San Francisco game and the Bears couldn't score a touchdown. The offensive line is improving--not good, but improving. Cutler is getting worse. That suggests there isn't a 1:1 relationship between Cutler's performance and the offensive line's performance, or that everything will become super-duper when Cutler has everything in place to be wonderful and special.

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Fire Phil Emery

I don't regret the trade. While he has not been the savior that many of us hoped for, it's instantly clear after watching him play QB that he has poise, talent and potential like no other QB that the Bears have ever had. The only question I have is will he live up to that talent and potential? It's too hard to say with the current players that are around him to offer a fair evaluation.

His strengths are clear: extremely strong arm, mobility, ability to throw on the run.
His weaknesses are also clear: throwing off front foot causing erratic passes, accuracy, ability to throw it away when nothing is there.

To me his weaknesses are fixable. Given a solid offensive line, I think he will have time to improve his accuracy and not have to scramble throw/force throw in as many instances. The other problem is mechanical and can be fixed. The throwing into tight coverages should come with more coaching and maturity.

I wouldn't change the trade. I think getting Knox is going to prove valuable in years to come. Couldn't care less about losing Orton but IB's points about the picks are solid and irretubable; they hold value whether or not Angelo is able to capitalize on them or not.

I think more importantly what we need to see to facilitate improvement in Cutler is: new head coach, new GM, revamped offensive line and at least one WR that can keep defenses from single coverage.

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Does your cat make too much noise? Try KITTEN MITTENS!


Charlie: Oh shit. Look at that door dude. See that door right there? That door marked 'Pirate'? You think a pirate lives in there?
Dennis: I see a door marked 'Private.'

Theres no way anyone could regret this trade. If the Bears are bad now imagine how it would be with Orton.

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"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

Orton WOULD NOT throw 18 INT's in 10 games!

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

The interceptions that he has thrown do not bother me nearly as much as the reasoning behind the interceptions - forcing throws, trying to make something happen when nothing is there, forced out of the pocket, forced to throw quick because of pocket closing, etc.

These things can be fixed with a better line, a better off. coordinator, proper mechanics and proper coaching of Cutler.

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Does your cat make too much noise? Try KITTEN MITTENS!


Charlie: Oh shit. Look at that door dude. See that door right there? That door marked 'Pirate'? You think a pirate lives in there?
Dennis: I see a door marked 'Private.'

You know what would make this stone soup fantastic? Bacon and sausage.

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Fire Phil Emery

A large number of the interceptions this year can be put on the receivers. Definitely not an excuse, but the number itself is inflated.

Trade Cutler in the off season & draft Mike Kafka. Cutler blows! It does mot matter to him either. It looks like he could give a shit!

Ok,Ok...That's what you expect ME to say. What disturbs me this season is the dump pass to Forte has disappeared. I was wondering WHY? Oh,yeah...IF the Bears could get a bunch of draft picks for Cutler,TRADE HIM!

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Admittedly, the "ingredients" in order to fix Cutler seem to be multiple, but I don't think you are questioning whether he is "fixable" or not are you IB?

I was going to set up a thread about jamarcus russell and ask you and the other football pundits whether you think he is "fixable". In other words, would a new system, new coach or some better mechanics make russel a viable NFL QB? I think the same thing can be said about Cutler in many ways.

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Does your cat make too much noise? Try KITTEN MITTENS!


Charlie: Oh shit. Look at that door dude. See that door right there? That door marked 'Pirate'? You think a pirate lives in there?
Dennis: I see a door marked 'Private.'

i forgot that the trade was cutler for orton straight up

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Dear God, if Jay Cutler is JaMarcus Russell, I'm going to put a revolver in my mouth.

Cutler isn't a rookie. This is his fourth season in the league. He's not recovering from some terrible injury like Carson Palmer. This Bears team isn't a 1-9 team made significantly better by the awesome passing game Jay Cutler has created.

I know, I know. "I'm not going to make excuses for Jay Cutler, but [seventeen excuses for Jay Cutler] Kyle Orton sucks." Ad infinitum. I'd rather be wrong about this. We'll see.

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Fire Phil Emery

Ok, so I take this to mean that you feel that Russell is not a fixable or viable NFL QB?

Do you think Cutler's tendencies, mechanics and decision making can be improved on?

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Does your cat make too much noise? Try KITTEN MITTENS!


Charlie: Oh shit. Look at that door dude. See that door right there? That door marked 'Pirate'? You think a pirate lives in there?
Dennis: I see a door marked 'Private.'

let's see. one has had success in the past...

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

You're right. Here's 12 more stones, make it happen.

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Jay Cutler is a better QB than his stats dictate. He passes the eye test and all his flaws are fixable...

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@audioidkid

Cutler is "fixable" I guess. But he has to do it. I dont know any coach that will significantly help him develop. He knows what he needs to do to play better, and he definitely has the talent to play better.

Russell is not "fixable". He's horrendous. Historically bad.

The fact that Russell and Cutler were compared to eachother heading into Week 12 speaks volumes about how bad Cutler has been this year.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Depends on who's giving that test. From what I've seen Cutler has been as bad as his stats indicate this season. I do agree all his flaws are fixable though

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I regret the trade because of the meatballish radio and threads that it's brought with it. The vast majority of people just pick a side and hammer it to death rather than allow an honest evaluation to be done. Have a simple debate about it? forget it...not possible.
Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one and they're probably full of shit...or something like that.

Cutler's speed, agility, quickness, and arm strength pass my eye test more so than Kyle Orton ever could.

and that is the comparison...

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@audioidkid

Yeah he definitely is clearly better than Orton overall(despite his play to the contrary this season), and especially in those four categories you named. But isn't the crux of the argument the 2 first round picks also? I agree with IB when he stated he thought that Orton was about 20% of the value the Bears gave up.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

eh...so, the Bears take a DL or CB that leaves the team or gets cut? not a very good argument by me....so, I'll let Jerry Angelo do the arguing for me.

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@audioidkid

I'm just saying that all the very successful teams are put together mostly through the draft.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

i agree...but, JA sucks at drafting top picks. i don't think we will know if this trade worked for a few years...but, I'd still rather have Jay than Kyle and some unknown quantity draft picks.

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@audioidkid