I initially responded to this.As I said before, I was one of the biggest critics of Rex Grossman and it would be hypocritical of me to not treat Cutler the same way. I even was critical of Orton but that was a quick conversation because no one was going to argue his lack of a deep ball or mobility with me. Nothing has been proven with Cutler yet and we won't have a really good idea of if he is fixable until next year.
If being honest with my thoughts and fairly accurate with my critiques is being an asshole then I guess I am. Would you prefer that I pretended like he's been great this year and predicted greatness in the future with no real logical reasoning in order to make everyone feel better? I can do it for all the sports. I predict the Bulls, Sox, Bears, and Hawks to win championships in the next 18 months! I predict the Cubs to lose 162 games next year! Frank C. will win the lottery and you and bigfan can buy the White Sox from Uncle Jerry!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So you just like being an asshole. Thanks for clarifying.

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Please explain further. I'm giving honest assessments that a majority of Bears fans now agree with and those who don't are doing little more than having a belief it will change in the future.

To be honest, the only thing I did in this thread that could be construed as gloating is to turn the tables on Spaulding when she actually had the audacity to say negative things about Jay after months of her calling me out personally for some sort of Boilermaker family vendetta against the QB who had the audacity to be traded for a Purdue player.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Um, except that I already said I was probably wrong about the Cutler trade. I was in favor of it. I don't know that it was a bust yet, but it's sure starting to look that way.

People won't give up the Cutler ghost because it's one of the few times when fans almost unanimously supported a huge, probably-not-going-to-happen idea, and it actually happened. If it doesn't work out, it might prove that being a GM and evaluating talent isn't that easy, and that fans don't really have all the answers. The normal fan response is to second-guess every decision. They can't do that this time, since they loved Cutler so very very much, so instead it becomes the Emperor's New Jersey: why, if I squint hard enough, I can see Pro Bowl caliber QB play!

In other words, fans are being stubborn and avoiding facts in order to not look silly. Which always seems to be the criticism of coaches by fans as well. Plus ca change...

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Fire Phil Emery

Here's a fact you have chosen to ignore; no trade in any sport can be seen as a bust after a mere 11 games.

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I believe you are wasting your time with Frank, Rick. I also dont see how you are coming off like an asshole, but oh well.

It's ridiculous that not everybody agrees with this in some form or another: The Cutler trade doesn't look like it has worked out for the Bears so far, but he has talent and there is a chance he can learn to harness that talent and become a top flight QB. There is also an equally good chance this is what Cutler is.

In other words, noone is saying Cutler doesnt have incredible physical talent. The only argument is whether he learns to play that well. It is simply inarguable that the play he has shown thus far warrants anything near what the Bears gave up for him. I personally dont ever see him becoming that player, but he has the potential to.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That's not a fact. It's an opinion. I agree with your opinion on that though.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Do you even bother to read what I write, or do you just assume?

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Fire Phil Emery

I don't know... can you ID a bad trade in baseball after 120 games? In basketball after 61 games? I think you can.
And it's not just Cutler's performance here. It's the potential performance of those draft picks that must be considered in the mix as well.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Yet a coach can be great after 6 games.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Does Orton's QB play win us the games vs. Pittsburgh and @ Seattle??? I dont know if it does, and then we still wouldnt be competing for the playoffs if those were losses

Well, Duh.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I have never called the trade a bust. I've said judging it with what has happened so far it has been which is accurate. I've even gave a criteria for next year in which my criticism will be gone. It may get better but as we get a larger sample size we are still seeing subpar returns. We can start to speculate about how his career here in Chicago will go. You choose to believe that these 11 games are a fluke and it will improve dramatically. I choose to think that the improvement will not be as dramatic.


If we assume that Orton is performing as he did last year, then those would have been winnable games too. A case could be made that the Bears would be 4-1 vs. Pitt, Seattle, Atlanta, SF, and GB if we have production equal to what Orton did last year for the Bears or showed the expected improvement of another year of starting under his belt.

Let's put it another way. It's hard to imagine Orton playing worse than Cutler has this year given that the skill positions are all upgraded or the same as last year. Add in 2 quality draft picks and you would have to imagine for this year they'd be a better team.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Thats what a bunch of meatballs dont want to look at. Thats the biggest factor in all this. Orton is not better than Cutler. We know this. I dont think anyone is disputing that, except possibly that idiot Hussra with that one thread in Mac's section. Two firsts and a third is a huge price. I dont see why people dont understand this.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Not to mention the higher salary he gets and therefore less money for free agents. That is why most teams with expensive QB's end up building through the draft, which is harder when you don't have 4/6 valuable picks in two drafts in a row.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Some people don't believe a draft pick equals certain future hall of famer. When given the opportunity to trade unproven talent for proven talent I will do it every time.

Well the Redskins have been the team to employ this philosophy the most over the past decade. The Colts and Steelers almost never employ this philosophy.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Nor the Patriots, outside of the Randy Moss trade, and that was for a fourth rounder.

The best teams build mostly through the draft. If fans were allowed to become general managers, every team would look like the Washington Redskins. How is that working out?

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Fire Phil Emery

A case could also be made that the Bears would have gone 1-4 in those games, cause for all the bad plays/INTs that Cutler made, he made many great throws/plays that Kyle Orton would have never been able to make, which with no running game has been our only way to move the ball.

Knox was part of the Cutler trade as well, so maybe without him we take Maclin/Harvin with our 1st round pick, which is a slight upgrade, but not a season changer. Our 3rd round pick may be a OL/SS starter this year, but with Angelo's draft history, who knows. Granted, it does hurt to not have another 1st round pick next year, but I dont know if this season is that different.

Minnesota traded a 1st and two 3rds for Jared Allen. How is that working out?

Pretty well. Along with their drafting of players like AP, Harvin, Rice, Kevin Williams, many key players overall.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Right. The Vikings are a team that got close through the draft and have added some veterans to put them over the top. The core of that team was established through the draft.

But even the Jared Allen trade perhaps proves too much. The Vikings are split between a very young group and an old group. The old group is going to decline pretty quickly. If the Vikings don't win the Super Bowl this year, they'll still have good players on offense, but they're going to be left with a lot of holes to fill. The reason for some of those holes will be the inability to fill those needs through the draft.

If you're a 10-6ish team that feels that one or two more pieces are needed to make a short SB run, there's value in mortgaging the future. That describes about 20% of the league at any time, and even amongst those teams, the best of them stockpile draft picks for the long haul. The Vikings are not a great success story of the 21st century NFL, and there's no evidence they'll have anything close to the staying power of the Colts, Patriots, or Steelers.

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Fire Phil Emery

No one said that he had to make the exact same plays Cutler made. It's about consistency. We know what Orton did last year with the same or worse skill position players. Do you not think that he could do the same with an improved Hester and Earl Bennett instead of Rashied Davis? Add in Maclin and it's not crazy to predict that Orton would have had a better season than last year. It's impossible to know for certain how the games would have gone but just because Jay Cutler makes one or two amazing throws a game doesn't mean that Orton couldn't have been more productive making more safe and effective throws while not turning the ball over.


If the Bears really loved Knox they would have simply taken him with another pick. He'd be pick 119 instead of 140. 5th round picks are mostly luck anyways. They could have taken that third round pick and gotten two 5th rounders if they really wanted.

All I know is that we would have upgraded 2 positions last year and assuming that Orton was able to perform similarly to last year we'd be getting better QB play because Orton last year was better than Cutler this year statistically with a better offensive line but not as good of skill position players.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

BR, Ortman also had a solid running game to fall back on last year. This year, it's all air or it's not moving.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

This goes back to another point though. Do you believe that Matt Forte forgot how to play football in the off-season?

Could it be as much to do with a change in philosophy as it is Matt Forte suddenly not being good?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Forte wouldnt be the first rookie RB to fall off. Its certainly possible he wasnt as good as his stats last season. Even then, 3.9 YPC isnt anything to write home about. Im not sure this team would be in playoff contention with Orton +1st + 3rd round pick.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't know. I happen to think Matt Forte wasn't that good last year. He went from average RB behind bad line to sub-average RB behind a worse line.

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Fire Phil Emery

Neither.
It's several things.
Kreutz is no where near as good as he used to be.
Williams isn't as good as advertized.
St. Clair wasn't really all that bad after all.
Garza might be bilingual, but he still isn't good at pro football.
I don't doubt that Forte was exhausted after last year, and having been overused and not used to the longer season, he wore down this year.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

My point is just that the Bears have someone at running back who did perform well last year who is only now in his second year. We know he has the ability to look like a decent RB and most people projected him to play very well. He clearly hasn't but I think there is a difference between a lack of production and a lack of having a running game. When Adrian Peterson was starting a game we knew we didn't have a running game. I'm not so sure with Forte as this drop-off has been very steep.

I think the whole offense is broken but I have a hard time saying that a lack of a running game is hurting the passing game just like I think a lack of a productive passing game isn't necessarily hurting the running game. Isn't that the reasoning why our running game would be improved? Defenses now had to pay attention to the deep ball now and it would keep 8 men out of the box.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What's happening here is this.
Last year the Opposing teams knew that the deep ball wasn't a problem and the receivers were going to be easy to cover in single coverage. I don't have the stats but I bet there's 8 in the box on 70% of the Defensive plays against the Bear last year. Forte managed to have a good year in spite of that. Again, there was better staff on the line, and Kruetz was one year less dinged (although still showing significiant signs of decline). We bitched about St. Clair but he was better than we thought, I think now.
When Cutler came in it was supposed to open more run potential as teams were less likely to stuff 8 in the box, but the problem is that the receivers still are guys who don't need to be doubled up, they don't run intelligent routes. Forte has been found out, and his line is shit. They might be doing relatively "decent" pass coverage but they can't move a line for shit this year.
So, problem seems to be that there's no threat from the WR's, predictable play calling, and a line that cannot support a solid running game.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014