I think the terrible Oline and lack of running game is hurting Cutler. I've been as critical of him as anyone on here but I'm pretty sure he's not one of the worst starting QBs in the league. He's shown he is an average to above average QB the past few years. With a decent line and an average running game, he can return to those numbers.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Let's not forget that he's thrown some bad bad bad balls. Sure, some of his INT's were weird tips and some bad routes and slips but he's thrown a shitload of INT's man, and the ones in the Redzone on slants to Olsen are inexcusable.
No, Cutler has been bad on his own too. These other things are factors, but from what I've seen, Cutler's not been 100% present every game.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Oh I agree, and have pointed that out many times, much to the annoyance of Frank and Spaulding. He's been pretty terrible this year. I just dont think he would be this bad if his oline and running game were better. But like IB, Rick, and I have been saying... a QB that was this expensive should at the very least be average with even the worst offensive support. He looks like a player that needs good players around him to perform. Thats not the QB you give up that much for.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The difference between you and I is I would say it (most of the time (sometimes I was an a hole)) to get a rise out of you. Some of your arguments entertain me. I might need a sarcasm font or color.

I do think you have way too much love for Kyle Orton and you rely on stats and outcomes too much. IB and Coast are similiar in that respect but I think they listen a little better. I think you put Orton on this team and you have a lot more 3 and outs than they do now. Orton is an okay qb he will never be more than that and unless you have a really solid team you won't go anywhere with him.

I still think you are wrong about Cutler and I haven't changed my thoughts about him. If you go back and look I've said I don't know what we have but he was/is worth the risk. He could be great. I haven't suddenly figured out anything, and this is why I think you can be an ass. You took a statement and ran with it in the direction you want it to go. I don't stop arguing with you because I have realizations that you are correct I stop because I am tired of arguing with you. It's not the same as being right.

I liked Orton. He was a frustrating qb to watch but I liked him. He didn't beat himself a lot but I don't think he was capable of being great. I think your history is a little revisionist there. I love Cutler. I think he is capable but right now he is beating himself. It makes it a little more frustrating. I felt that way about Grossman but he was a dope. I don't think Cutler is a dope so he has that going for him and he is nowhere near as bad a rex.

I'm disappointed that the receivers are not better and he has failed to get the ball to them. I'm really disappointed in the red zone ints. That's on him. No way am I close to jumping ship or thinking he never had problems and can never correct them. You saying that is exactly why I've given you shit. You get nutty.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Which makes Ortons short comings not as bad as Rex's. The expectations were never there for him. Orton is not very accurate, not very mobile, and does not have a good arm. He stinks in the sense he is not really talented. He started off a few seasons college and pro well and then fizzled due to injury or whatever. He's not very good but it's not his fault he was the starting qb. He'd make a good backup.

Grossman was given every chance and I think had the talent. He couldn't pull it together. That's why I hated him that and that dumb fucking stare.

Would you prefer if I relied on dreams and wishes?

You have too changed your thoughts on Cutler. Go re-read your other post. I'm not taking it in any direction you didn't.

You said that Cutler has "always been average". You said the trade may not work out. You were absolutely convinced before that I was dead wrong.

I have never said that Cutler can't be great one day. That is what must happen in order for the trade to be worth it.

You stop arguing with me because eventually you just fall back to the lazy response of "You just love Kyle Orton" and when that fails you give up. Let me make this clear to you: I would rather have Kyle Orton where he is now than in a Bears uniform for his sake. He's in a better spot.

Do me a favor. Please give me your expectations for Jay Cutler's performance next year. I already gave the two criteria in which to judge him. Do you feel that it is unfair to expect a QB who you gave up a ton for to throw for 3,500 yards, 25+ td's, and around a 2 to 1 ratio?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Not dreams and wishes but applying some critical thinking every once and a while is a good thing. They really don't teach that at Purdue though.

I've always said it may or may not work out but it was worth the risk. Have Darkside find those posts. I think he was great and can be great again.

Lazy responses is bullshit and either you know it to be bullshit or you honestly read and assess what you want or you don't understand what I'm saying.

It's too soon for next year's predictions.

The Bears have failed at drafting any quality for the past few years anyway. This year's rookie class really couldn't be much worse. Their top 4 picks have combined for what, zero games played? Even Knox and Afalava (the only other draft pick to even play) are destined to be good supporting players at best... not legit top tier game changers. The 2nd year players aren't panning out either. Forte could still turn out to be a decent player...and maybe Bennet too. But that's not good enough. Still just good supporting players at best. The draft before that gave us Greg Olsen. He's OK, but again not a game changer and the rest of the class sucks. The year before that we got 2 top return guys...Danieal Manning and Devin Hester. Hester's a pretty good #2 or #3 receiver and could still provide a spark (hopefully) in the punt return game. Manning's great at kick returns and not great at safety. Getting a kick returner and punt returner, no matter how good they are, can't be the only thing you get in a draft class to build a team. The 2005 draft class is gone, so that's pretty much a huge fail.
So that's 5 draft classes. FIVE!!!... and what do we have? The same thing we already had.. only older and not as good, and very few OK younger players. That’s a draft disaster if you expect to be a contender.

The intended starting defense for this team includes 8 players from drafts and free agents from 2000-2004. As good as those guys are/were, that's just too much to expect no injuries and peak performance from older players. Especially with previous injury histories.
I don't think I really need to go over the offensive side, but it's pretty clear the Bears were really hoping they'd catch lightning in a bottle with the O-line pick ups along with Chris Williams to develop and hope that the "potential" of Olsen and Hester would turn into pro-bowl caliber production...and also counted on Bennett's previous relationship with Cutler to be a big bonus. That's a lot to count on. Especially considering the fact that only 4 players on that offense have EVER actually been really good....and 2 of those are ready to retire (Pace, Kreutz). Regardless of what was said about a great QB making the players around him better, the fact is that this offense sucks because of the half-assed effort rebuilding the offensive line. Omiyale was never good, Pace was obviously done before they signed him, it's clear last year and early this year that Williams sucks. Beekman's a backup. I don't even care about Cutler. This offense blows for 100 reasons and Cutler’s 1 of them, not all 100. I don't need lame comparisons that are completely baseless. Forte can't run...why? Because the line blows. It's pretty clear they can't consistently pass protect. Combine bad run blocking with bad pass protection with a quarterback that hasn't learned the art of throwing the ball away along with the inexperience at the wide receiver position (I don't care how much of an upgrade you think it was, 2 of the top receivers never played a down in the NFL before this year) and you basically have the 2009 Bears offense...bad.

Years of bad decisions have put the Bears in the position they’re in now, not just 1 trade made this off-season.

From another thread.

Sounds like you really like Orton! A quick google search showed that almost all your Orton related posts were negative. If only search worked here I could find some more good ones I'm sure.
You either don't like Orton or you aren't paying attention this year. He's much more than a backup. Just admit that you don't like Orton or that you blame him for a bad senior season at Purdue. You are hardly alone in that thought no matter how incorrect it is. You've pretty much said so before.
You should never again call me biased for my thoughts on Kyle Orton after this sentence. Rex Grossman is terrible and outside of a six game stretch where he played out of his mind he always was. I love the fact that in the same thread that you accuse me of being a Kyle Orton homer you pretend like Rex Grossman was almost great but it just didn't work out.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Saying I'm just biased because you don't like what I'm saying even though at least so far they are proving pretty accurate is lazy. Talk about critical thinking all you want but "You just love Kyle Orton" doesn't exact meet that standard.

I'm not asking for a prediction. I'm asking for your expectations for what he will do next year. That's the problem I have. Everyone wants to say that he will be great one day but no one is willing to quantify what that means. By any criteria, through 11 games, he's failed to meet expectations. I doubt even you would argue that. What is your minimum threshold for success next year? That is the true test of whether or not you think this trade was worth it. I'm sorry if I'm relying too much on "stats and outcomes" but "stats and outcomes" are basically the only measures we have.

You won't answer because you know it's a question that shows just how far away he is from elite QB's like Tony Romo and Eli Manning(both of whom will likely meet that criteria this year). For all the bias you see, I think I'm being pretty rational here. Just like this season was not a success if the Bears didn't either win 10 games or make the playoffs. Otherwise, it was a decline from last year.

I take it just like Frank that you are unwilling to put any type of expectations on Cutler for next season.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

God, you're an idiot. In week 12 of the 2009 season, you want us to predict what Jay Cutler will do in 2010.

How about this; he gets hurt in the preseason and doesn't play a down. That way you can point and laugh some more and dig up these old threads and say "I told you so!"

Or, maybe he throws for 29 TDs that are all worth 6.985 points a piece.


As I said.

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Do you not understand that I am asking for an expectation? How will you judge him? What do you expect from him? I want to know where the bar is set for him. That is all. It's not that hard.


That's pretty stupid. I would not hold an injury against him. There is no victory in this. I'm not even saying I predict Cutler to do what I have said. That is the expectation that I need in order to have the trade validated. That is the standard that I expect out of a QB we spent a lot to get.

3,500+ yards next year, 25+ touchdowns, and have a td/int ratio near 2 to 1

That should be the minimum performance we get from him next year assuming he plays at least 14 games(5 QB's are almost there in 11 games)

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

He will put on a helmet and throw a football at Soldier Field.

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Fire Phil Emery

I'm enjoying this thread

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

+6.985

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Yay! L'il Jay Cutler put on his pads like a big boy! The trade was a success, no matter how awful he performs then, I suppose.

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Fire Phil Emery

Only you would side with Rick is demanding stats/predictions/expectations for the 2010 season.

What do you think Notre Dame will do in 2010, Rick? Who cares that they don't have a coach right now, what do you set the bar at?

You can't.

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Ok lets try this another way

What would Cutlers numbers have to be to be considered UNsuccessful

Apparently 16:20 isnt UNsuccessful so what is?

I believe Ricks expectations are modest and I expect AT LEAST that from a player thats worth 2 first rd picks.

I would expect a minimum of 8 wins next year. Anything else would be a failure just like this year was a failure even though they may win 7.

Any more questions?


I most certainly can. I just did.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I can.

I want 8 Wins, and significant improvement on defense.

Why is this so hard?

Same as baseball...what do you expect from Jake Peavy?

What would make him successful 15 Wins? below 3.50 Era 200 K's What?

Expectations =/= predictions.

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Fire Phil Emery

It's useless. Frank isnt that dumb that he doesnt understand what Rick is asking of him. He's just copping out because really there is no defense of Cutler's play so far, and if he were to actually set a bar of reasonable expectations, if Cutler doesnt meet it, or falls well below it, he wont be able to use the same excuses he has the past three months.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I expect Rodgers to win MVP next year. Anything less will be considered a failure.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I will not predict or set any expectation for Jay Cutler in 2010 other than fewer INTs.

Prediciting anything for the games that will take place 10-14 months down the road is moronic.

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I know these stats arent perfect but Id like him to move up from

23rd in Rating
19th in Yards per attempt

Can you at least acknowledge the fact that nobody has asked you for a prediction?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

1) Put on helmet
2) Throw ball at least one time
3) Throw at least one less interception than he did in 2009 which will be anywhere from 19 to as high as 29 assuming he continues on his trend of throwing roughly two a game.


That's why I am not asking for a prediction. I am asking for an expectation. There is a difference. I can extend that expectation for the next 5 years.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm expecting Cutler's complete decapitation in the next few games after a blown blocking assignment. 2010 never comes.