I don't care what Cutler's numbers are this year or next. I care about what the Bears do to build around Cutler for the FUTURE.

Did you guys really think Cutler would be the second coming of christ and turn water into wine?

The focus should be on Angelo! HE not Lovie or Cutler should be the target of our anger.

Angelo's failures = too many to list

Believe or not, those stats 3,500 yds, 25+ TDs, 2-1 TD/Int ratio (I know you said near 2 to 1 but pick a lane...I'm using 2-1) aren't achieved that often by anyone unless your name is Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. That seems a little unfair to say that's the minimum performance ... and for 14 games!?!?

Eight did it in 2008, five in 2007, and five in 2006. A number of others fall just short on the TD/INT ratio. Asking for top 5 QB production when you've given up resources asking for that production isn't asking too much.

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Fire Phil Emery

A minimum of 14 games. There are 4 QB's who have basically thrown 25 tds in 11 games. Matt Schaub needs 4 tds to do it and a small amount of yardage. Tom Brady needs 5 touchdowns which he surely will get. There are plenty of QB's who will do it this year. At least 5 will. Possibly as high as 8 or 9.

Assuming they stay healthy, Tony Romo and Eli Manning should both reach those numbers. The int ratio may be close.

What do you mean pick a lane? If you want, I'll accept 1.9 to 1 td/int ratio since it's not like there is some magic barrier that makes 26/13 good but 26/14 bad.

If you don't like my expectation then please post your own and then we'll see who meets that criteria this year. Be careful though, if you drop it down too much further you are basically expecting Jay Cutler to become a top 15 QB. So go ahead and tell me what my numbers should be then.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Your numbers are wrong.
2003
Manning
2004
Brady
McNabb
Culpepper
Manning
2005
Palmer
Manning
2006
Brees
Manning
Bulger
Palmer
Brady
2007
Brady
Manning
Hasselbeck
2008
Brees
Warner
Rodgers
Rivers
Manning

And my point is that if that's the minimum expectation... the worst he can play, otherwise he's a failure... and in 14 games.... that's unfair. Quarterbacks have been the league MVP with worse numbers than that.

I'm not the one asking for #s to reflect expectations, you are. Around 2 to 1 could be anything. Maybe 1.5 can be rounded up to 2... I have no idea. You tell me, it's your thought. You already picked the magical 25 TD and 3,500 yard barrier... so 3,499 yards, 24 TDs and 0 INTs would be a failure.

I want the Bears to be a Super Bowl contender. If they are, I'm confident Cutler's stats will be worthy of Pro Bowl consideration. If they aren't, I don't care what his stats are.

Alright somebody is lying about the numbers...who is it? Ill take 1.75-1 ratio. 27\15 would be ok. Obviously other factors will apply. Westmont an Infinity td/int ratio would make 3499 ok

WestmontMike,
Your numbers are wrong.

Also, you are conveniently changing my argument. For instance, in 2004, Jake Delhomme was 29/15. Is that really that much different than 30/15?

I've already stated that 1.9 to 1 is also acceptable because that whole .1 is pretty subjective.

Since you seem to have a problem with mine then please give me a better set of numbers and then we'll see who fits yours.

Also, you do realize that it's a MINIMUM of 14 games. If he plays 16 games I'm not dropping the final two.

I did. Let's say 1.9 to 1. There is no way that you would consider 1.5 to 1 the same as 2 to 1. Thats the difference between 23 tds and 15 ints and 30 tds and 15 ints. Pretty large difference there I would say. Wouldn't you? So there is your answer. If I have to quantify it then 1.9 to 1 or higher. You now have an exact statistic.

That's a copout and you know it. You challenge my criteria(and do so with incorrect facts) and yet you are unwilling to come up with a better criteria. As I said in the original time, if the Bears win the Super Bowl, I'll consider him to be a success. I'll even extend that to making the Super Bowl.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Unless you're kicking an extra point.

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What? You complain about me saying "around 2 to 1" and then complain about a scenario where he almost gets each of those? Pick a lane.

I would say that I'll accept 3,499 yards but I don't want to be called out by you for not "picking a lane".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Go ahead tell me who the other QB in 2003 was.

You posted the 1.9-1 ratio AFTER I posted my list. I'm not changing anyone's argument, I don't need to.

I realize his numbers count for all 16 games, but if for some reason he only plays 14 I think your expectation is unfair.

How do say I'm copping out on my criteria for success and then say you agree with it if they make the Super Bowl?

If you'd like to use a range, go ahead. I'm only picking on your numbers because you said that's the minimum he needs... as if he needs AT LEAST 3,500 yards and AT LEAST 25 TDs. That's pretty high standards for a minimum.

I'll admit I'm wrong on that. Trent Green,McNair and Aaron Brooks only had 24 tds that year. If you really think I'd hold that whole one missed touchdown against Cutler then I guess you win.


No I didn't. Look at the post directly above your list, posted 17 minutes before you posted your list. You are wrong here.


Winning the Super Bowl was a part of my original criteria. Upon reflection, making the Super Bowl would be alright too.


I tried to use a range and you said that was wrong! Which is it? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

There are 5 QB's who did it last year. There are probably 5 that will do it this year. Maybe more.

If you think that my numbers are too high, then we can simply subtract 2 touchdowns. You've convinced me.
23+ touchdowns, 3,500 yards+, 1.9 to 1 td/int ratio.

Happy now?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

why so little love for QB rating?

QB rating probably has the best correlation between a QB's performance and a team's success (the higher the QB rating, the more likely his team is to win)--hasn't Cutler WON every game in which his QB rating > 100?

Total yards probably has the least correlation between a QB's success and a team's success (that is, throwing for more yards doesn't translate into W's at the same rate as having a higher QB rating)---Matt Stafford routinely out-throws opponents in terms of total yds but that doesn't translate into wins (so far).

Not really. I'd much rather have him throw for 25+ TDs, 3,500+ Yards and have a 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio.

QB Rating is a shitty, pseduo-scientific mismosh of usefulness and nonsense. It tells us little we don't know (yards and TDs are good, INTs are bad) and arbitrarily assigns numbers to those figures. Is a passer with a 100 rating always better than a passer with a 90 rating? What does having a rating of 100 or 120 or 70 mean?

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Fire Phil Emery

Well, in Jay Cutler's career to date, a passer rating of 100+ means.....VICTORY!

they already did pay a ton of money for an unproven qb that might be a bust, if unproven refers to an elite qb, the obvious expectation of a top 5 draft pick

_________________
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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I think this is still the strongest argument in favor of the trade. One of the reasons teams without a great QB stay inconsistent is that there is a continuous need to pouring resources into the QB position that could be going elsewhere. If you have a great quarterback, you can use those resources elsewhere AND the holes will be less obvious.

One problem is that you are using resources for the next two years on the QB. That's OK if you have someone good enough to paper over any deficiencies. There are guys like that. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady will not play on anything but top-15 offenses, regardless of the personnel around them. I thought that Cutler could be one of those players. He still may become one, but obviously my confidence is much lower.

What you hope is that, even without the draft picks, the constant need to be developing new quarterbacks, adjusting offensive schemes to meet the talents of particular QBs, etc. outweighs whatever loss you might incur in draft picks and cap resources. But that's only true if you have a QB that plays with some modicum of ability. You can pay Rex Grossman 60MM and sign him through 2013 and solve the same problems, but you'll still be left with bad QB play.

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Fire Phil Emery

That was true up until the Arizona game this year.

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Various thoughts from posts earlier in this thread.

1. I don't regret the Cutler deal and would definitely do it again. Cutler is a Franchise caliber QB. He was a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB who has proven that with the proper tools, he can be highly effective throwing the ball. No player on the field other than the Center has the ball in their hands as much as the QB and history has proven that you are about 10x more likely to win a Championship with a Franchise signal caller than without. Is Cutler having a rough season, especially in the Red Zone and when it comes to forcing the ball into places he shouldn't? Sure. Are there reasons and excuses galore for this? Yes. Does Cutler deserve the blame? Plenty of it. But would I rather go back to the days of 22 starting QB's over 8 seasons? Are you f**king nuts?

2. Long story short, Cutler has young developing weapons. I agree with the concept that a Chicago Bears receiving corp consisting of a legit #1 (Brandon Marshall if he becomes available), Devin Hester as a stretch the field deep threat, Johnnie Knox as a solid slot guy that is interchangeable with Hester on the outside, Bennett as a solid possession guy, and Olsen, who is developing into one of the better receiving TE's in the league, is a pretty good arsenal. In his first year with Cutler, Olsen is a 70 catch, 650 yard, 9-10 TD guy. Cutler has got to get his INT's under control, no doubt. But hopefully this is his exception year. His INT's have never been this high, and despite what is being called a bad year, he's still on pace to throw for nearly 4,000 yards and just under 25 TD's. What's a good year look like? 4600+ and 30+ TD's? Even with a 1/3 less picks, he'd have 20 INT's. What would a Bears team look like with a 4,600 yard QB who had 32 TD's and 20 INT's? I think we're playoff bound. How about you?

3. Pace is supposedly injured now...The crop of free agent OT's was pretty rough and with the retirement of John Tait and the equally miserable play of John St. Claire, Angelo did the best he could signing Pace, Schaeffer, and Omiyale and hoping two panned out. As of right now, none have. Is it Angelo's fault that the free agent crop was bad? No. Is it his fault the OL was allowed to get to this point? Absolutely.

4. Cutler can be a Franchise, Pro Bowl caliber guy. Does he have the tools? Not yet. Does he have an Offensive Coordinator who has sucked for some time? Yes. Was Cutler a former Pro Bowl QB at 25 years old in a division with Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger and Phillip Rivers and Peyton Manning and a Brett Favre on the Jets? Yes, he was. Its not exactly fitting a square peg into a round hole to think its more likely we're screwing him up, is it?

5. If Cutler plays just like this for the next 3-5 years, then it will be a bad trade. Of course, he is completing about the same number of balls as a percentage. He's on pace to throw about the same number of TD's that he averages. He's rushing for similar statistics, too. But the major differences are that he's getting sacked far more than he ever has in his career and....guess what....he's throwing more INT's than he ever has in his career. Its like magic...

6. When any QB is surrounded by talent, he appears MORE talented. In Tom Brady's 1st season with Randy Moss on the roster, his yardage totals increased by 36%, his TD's increased by 108%, his INT's dropped by 33%, his completion percentage hit a career high, and his passer rating went up 30 points. Brady posted career highs in yardage, TD's, completion percentage, yards per attempt, interceptions (low), times sacked (low), passer rating, and even in rushing TD's. If the Bears added Brandon Marshall and Cutler saw even half the boost that Brady got from the addition of Moss in terms of percentages, he'd be looking at a 4700 yard, 35 TD, 19 INT, with a 90.4 passer rating. In other words, I think that would help. Those are Pro Bowl and playoff numbers for a QB. Just a thought.

yeah cutler made a pro bowl. Was he one of the three best qbs in his conference? Can anyone make a case he was better in anyway than rivers? Hes never been anything but a slightly above average qb- like orton, when surrounded by denver's quality parts. Basically he hasnt proven shit yet except he can put up decent numbers with a decent cast and a great line.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Favre Fan's 2009 Jay Cutler posts > Favre Fan's 2009 other NFL posts?

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idk, that's a low bar to hurdle.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jay Cutler's final stat line from the Arizona game, a 98.6 passer rating:

J. Cutler 29/47 369 7.9 3 1 98.6

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=291108003

and where are these 25+ TD's going to come from? i'd make predictions on who the bears can actually sign to improve the team rather than saying magically cutler will be better next year just because it's a new year. there is no reason to think that this corps of wide receivers will be any different than the past few years, and that's going to have an impact on cutler's performance.

C'mon Z, thats cream of stone soup!

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I thought a first, thrid, and Orton should have been enough. I think I said the 2nd first was a little much but if if mean losing Cutler you give it up. I still agree with that.

He's not as terrible as you guys say, and he is not as good as I want him to be. I agree with what Nas said.

It's too early for expectations for next year. We have to wait to see what happens with the roster, coaches, etc.

You obviously haven't considered Juaquin Iglesias coming out of the Lovie Smith imposed redshirt year.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

If what we are seeing is the Cutler ceiling when not surrounded by good players, then it was a shitty trade, and Cutler is no more than a mediocre QB. There should be room for him to improve independent of his surroundings.

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Fire Phil Emery