I think he can make some around him better. I don't think the bears have even average talent that the coaching staff knows how to work with. I thought they did. I thought the WRs would be okay, the talent was there. Either it's not or the coaching staff is not doing it's job.

The offensive line should not be this bad. It just shouldn't.

I thought Forte was better than this.

I don't know what some of you want me to say. He has disappointed me this season. I expected him in the sf game and one other (I can't remember now) to lead a game winning drive. He didn't, he threw awful interceptions.

If Cutler throws for 0 yrds 0 tds and 317 ints for the rest of his career as a bear I still say you make that trade. Take that risk. It may not have been and may never be worth it but you take that risk. I think he is one of those special players. That will never change.

no way. They would have beat the lions, browns, 49ers, and rams with orton instead of cutler. They have a game left vs the lions that theyd probably win. Both packers games were very winnable games lost on cutler ints

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

48-24 is hardly coming down to the wire. the game was close for a while but in the end the bears pulled away easily. even the first line of the recap of that game told you that:

Thats 5 wins at most, FF. Even the HOF'er Kyle Orton would not take this team to the playoffs.

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Bear special teams were better last year too. They basically won the GB game and were an important factor in the Saints win. We used to be able to count on the Bear special teams outplaying the opposing unit, but this year Bear special teams have not been as reliable.

I thought Cutler was nearly a finished product when he was traded to the Bears. Obviously I was mistaken. However, With the right coaching and a little more talent around him, i believe he can still become a QB, if not top 5, maybe in the top 8 or 9. He was certainly close to that with the Broncos.

Looking at interceptions Cutler averaged a pick every 34 attempts the last two years with the Broncos. This year with the Bears, every 21 attempts. I think Cutler needs some tough love from Bear coaches along with good coaching. Turner and Pep Hamiltion are not those coaches.

When Favre first started he threw a lot of ill-advised passes (and he still does to some extent). Much like Cutler. But Cutler had some good coaching in Denver and his interceptions were not that high, but with the Bears his interceptions have risen, coincidence? Favre had a Holmgren, Reid, Mariucci, Gruden. Cutler has Turner, Pep.

Again guys, Jason Campbell and Alex Smith are outperforming Cutler on similarly bad teams. The pieces may be slightly different but all the same excuses could be made in Washington and San Fransisco.

Do you guys realize just how bad Cutler has been in some games? Look at his game logs.
4 ints against Green Bay
5 ints against San Fransisco
171 yards, 1 touchdown, 1 int vs. Philadelphia
We know what happened in the last Green Bay game. That was a winnable game too. His stat line? 209 yards, 2 tds, 2 ints.

What happens if we get better performances in these 4 games? Can we go 3-1? Where would we be now? These are all games that Cutler did not play well. No one would argue that.

Is it too much to ask for your "Franchise QB" to not throw 4+ ints and throw for around 250 yards? That would probably have been good enough to win 3 out of 4 of those games. Maybe all 4 of them.

If Orton was having the exact same season you guys would all be calling for him to be replaced. You know it. I would too. He would deserve it. Cutler gets a pass because it's his first season and he should be we shouldn't pretend that he's not right at the top of the list in terms of blame for this season being a disappointment. I can't believe the same people that were absolutely giddy over the fact that we "finally got a franchise QB" would be able to accept a season like this. The same people that said that there was no comparison between Orton and Cutler and still do are accepting numbers that would have gotten Orton searching for a new home next year. All because Jay Cutler made a pro bowl last year and because people have convinced themselves he's a special player because at times he makes great plays but normally balances it out with more dumb plays.

Oh, but everyone will say that Jay Cutler hasn't played well but then will go on about every other player on offense being the problem. They'll even bring up the defense too.

I'm not saying that Jay Cutler ruined the season but "QB is the most important position in all of sports" because if your QB plays this bad you suck. Our QB played bad and we suck.

I just really hope that if and when Jay Cutler plays well next season that you all praise the great WR's, offensive line, and running game. After all, if they get the blame this year then when the offense is good again I hope you all minimize the impact of the QB too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This thread blows

He also gets a "pass" because Cutler had shown he could play near a Pro Bowl level with the Broncos. Orton had not before this year.

I think the vast majortity of Bear fans agree Cutler needs to make better decisions, but again his numbers, i.e. interceptions, have drastically gotten worse this year compared to his two full years with Denver. Personally i want to see Cutler with different coaching and a little more talent on offense.

Can we also celebrate how on his 8 fumbles that they've only lost 1 of them? It's another miracle!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I didn't know Jay celebrated festivus

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

another year of this and cutler bawls his way out of chicago. you can see it brewing already. he is trying to be the team guy, but i get the sense that he isn't going to sit back and get his ass kicked and answer tough questions after bad games too long before he is demanding a trade. im thinking this isnt exactly what he had in mind, becoming a punchline.

Lions outgained the Bears and outplayed them in every facet but special teams. That was a huge special teams game and win for the Beloved.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Should we analyze the facts behind this statement or would you prefer to conceed your mistake and not reveal your ignorance?

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I prefer if you reveal my ignorance.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm a little busy so this might have to be done in pieces

RB: Washington- Clinton Portis, Ladell Betts
SF- Frank Gore, Glen Coffee
BEARRRRRRRSSSSSSSSS- Matt Forte, Adrian Peterson

Would it be a huge stretch to say that each of these teams 2nd stringer is better than anything the Bears currently have? I'd certainly rather have both Betts, Portis and Gore than Forte. Coffee hasn't done much. He had a nice pre season and filled in when Gore was hurt. Advantage: SF + WAS by a HUGE margin.

TE: Washington- Cooley, Fred Davis (after Cooley's injury)
SF- Vernon Davis
BEARRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSS: Greg Olsen

A Pro Bowler, a soon to be Pro Bowler and Olsen. Even Fred Davis has come in and done a good job with 35 receptions and 5 TD. Advantage: SF + WAS by a sizeable margin.

WR: Washington- Santana Moss, Randle El (with high picked 2nd rounders Thomas and Kelly)
SF- Michael Crabtree, Isaac Bruce, Josh Morgan and lots of bad
Bears- Hester, Bennett, Knox

You would have a hard time arguing that Washington does not have the best group here. I would conceed the Bears were better than SF before Crabtree arrived. I cannot say that anymore. His arrival also coincides with Smith's return as a starter. I like Hester. I think he could be a much bigger impact player in a Harvin type role. Bennett is showing himself to be nothing but a possession reciever. Knox has shown good and bad. He is a legitimate NFL player, which makes him a great pick as a 5th rounder but I am not sure if he is an above average reciever.
Advantage: Washington (moderately) with SF and Bears being equal.

Now we can start to get really nuanced in the argument if you want to compare the OL and coaching.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Portis has really only played 6.5 games this year. I still can't imagine that Ladell Betts is better than Forte. I'm of the opinion that Forte didn't forget how to play football in the off-season but has clearly regressed. If Portis was playing all season you'd give it to Washington but he's not.
Frank Gore is great. San Fransisco wins that one.

Just like Frank Gore, Cooley doesn't really factor much since he's going to miss 2/3rds of the season. I like Vernon Davis a lot. He's better than Olsen. However, let's keep in mind that people thought Olsen was going to be a stud this year too so he's not as bad. It's a little early to call Fred Davis better than Olsen. He may be performing better but it's also a logical fallacy to say Fred Davis is better because he's putting up better numbers recently. I doubt many people would have taken Fred Davis over Olsen at the start of the year. The fact that Campbell has now shown to be able to effectively use two TE's shouldn't be used against him.

I think you overrate Santana Moss. Maybe I am underrating him. I don't think Randle El performs any better than Hester or Knox has.

Crabtree is good but that's terrible stuff behind him.


In my opinion, based off the qb hits/sacks numbers you'd have to say the Bears are the best OL of the three. Jason Campbell also is outrushing Cutler so you can't use the excuse that Cutler is more mobile. Cutler is more mobile than Alex Smith though.

Also, given the fact that Lovie Smith is the only coach in that group to reach the Super Bowl I'll say that he's the best coach.

Washington and San Fransisco are better at some things and the Bears are better in at least two(offensive line and coaching). I don't think you've clearly shown that either team is clearly better. Alex Smith may not be able to blame Frank Gore or Vernon Davis but he can certainly blame his offensive line. Jason Campbell can blame injuries to his players and his offensive line.

However, I don't think it explains why Cutlers statistics are worse, and significantly worse than Jason Campbell. Given the reputation of Alex Smith(draft bust almost out of the league) and Jason Campbell(QB fighting to keep his job in Washington and a major letdown so far) I'd say my statement still is pretty fair.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

horrible

Now why would I think Boilermaker Rick would simply give up when he is wrong. I especially liked your TE analysis: he may be playing better but since people thought the other guy would be better at the beginning of the season he is not better (Fred Davis was a high round pick at TE as well).

I admire your enthusiasm to argue at the drop of a hat. I really do. It is good to have someone like you around to test long held opinions. It's just that I often feel like one of the people sitting next to Ted Striker in Airplane when I correspond with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjF4_hR3FfQ

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Although I tend to side with rick on this argument, at least the Wall Street Journal provides a reason for optimism...

Picked Apart
Here are some elite NFL quarterbacks who led the league in interceptions.

QUARTERBACK/TEAM/YEAR INT
Ben Roethlisberger, PIT, 2006 23
Peyton Manning, IND, 1998 28
Brett Favre, GB, 1993 24
Jim Kelly, BUF, 1992 19
Dan Marino, MIA, 1989 (tied) 22
Fran Tarkenton, MIN, 1978 32
Joe Namath, NYJ, 1975 28
Terry Bradshaw, PIT, 1970 24
Johnny Unitas, BAL, 1966 24
Otto Graham, CLE, 1952 24

The complete article...http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 2708.html#

_________________
“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

I apologize for not agreeing with your thoughts on Fred Davis being better than Greg Olsen because he's had 3 decent games in a row.

The Bears have a better offensive line. The Bears have a much more established and strong coaching staff. Do you disagree? Advantage Bears.

SF has Vernon Davis and Frank Gore. Advantage SF.
Washington had Chris Cooley and Clinton Portis but now has Ladell Betts and "high round pick" Fred Davis. They also have Santana Moss who is probably a slight upgrade. Advantage Washington barely.

Please tell me how you have proved me wrong that they aren't on "similarly" bad teams. You may have a point that all the same excuses don't apply. I'll admit that they don't have all the same excuses, just some of them.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

But it's not just Fred Davis as Cooley played this year as well. Fred Davis has played at least as well as Olsen and Cooley was and is better than Olsen. Your point is the pieces are slightly different. I am telling you no, the pieces are significantly different at every position with the only slight difference coming at WR...and both those teams have at least one player at WR who would be the best WR on the Bears.

So we continue this dance Mr. Striker...long, boring and even in the face of significant evidence to the contrary, undecided...always a fight to the death.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I'll make it simple for you.

Washington and San Fransisco have better skill position players. It varies from slightly better to significantly better.
Chicago has better coaching and better offensive line play. This is especially true for Washington who has a terrible coach and a QB who is just as mobile getting hit and sacked significantly more.

You still have yet to address this. Are Washington and San Fransisco "similarly bad teams"?

Your point seems to be to point out that I was wrong when I said that there was only slight differences. As it stands today and for a majority of the season, SF was better at RB. That's the only "significant evidence to the contrary". If we ignore the fact that Cooley and Portis are both going to miss 2/3rds of the season, then they would have been much better. However, Betts and Davis are not any better than Forte and Olsen. Disagree with me if you want. Call it stubborn if you want but I'm not going to prop up Fred Davis because he's been good the past 3 weeks.

As they stand today, and as they have stood for a majority of the season, the Washington Redskins are not signifcantly better. Maybe on opening day the Redskins were but injuries got rid of the two best players on the Redskins.

Face it, you called out my "ignorance" and then found a way to back it up by saying that Washington's injured players are better and Fred Davis is greater than Olsen. You would be smarter admitting that your Washington Redskins premise is flawed but that San Fransisco has much better skill position players. I can't argue that Crabtree, Davis, and Gore aren't better. The offensive line and coaching is worse though.

Now go ahead and tell me how I am ignoring evidence and call me stubborn while propping up the play of Fred Davis and quoting movies from Comedy Central.

So to sum it up:
San Fransisco has better skill position players. San Fransisco has a worse offensive line and worse coaching.
Washington had better skill position players and still may have a slight advantage at WR. Washington has a worse offensive line and worse coaching.

This part is still 100% true.

The pieces aren't slightly different. I was wrong. I'll admit I was wrong. They don't have all the same excuses. Wash and SF can blame below league average offensive line and coaching. Chicago can blame below league average skill position players. Washington can also blame injuries.

Oh stewardess! I speak jive.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Compared to Singletary and Zorn, this coaching staff looks like Bill Belicheck.
Either your definition of "1 player on offense he can count on" is very high or you have not followed the career of Tom Brady. That's one who did it with Troy Brown.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm not reading this whole thread, but remember reading the first page or so a couple weeks ago.

I would make the same trade in a heartbeat today, tomorrow, or the next day. No regrets here. The trade I do regret is the Gaines Adams trade. It would have been nice having a second round pick.

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Second City Saint

I agree, and I never said they would. I think if Orton was on this team instead of Orton they would go 5-11 or 6-10. Right now with Cutler that looks right about how they will finish too. I just think it was extreme and foolish for Nas to suggest this is a 2 win team, AKA as bad as the Browns, Rams, Lions, Tampa Bay, etc. without Cutler.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Namath was never an elite QB but I get your point. Leading the league in INTs for just one year doesnt mean you suck or you've never been good. If Cutler had put up Rivers numbers in the past I would be more likely to think he's as great as Nas and Frank say he is. He just hasnt shown a history of greatness, and hasnt really progressed in 4 years.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So whats the difference between Forte now and a year ago? Too much workload last year?

Also the Pats line the early part of the decade was pretty makeshift, like the rest of their offense. It was by no means an elite unit.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No thats just stupid. You clearly are too in love with Jay Cutler to see clearly on this issue. Although like I said before, it certainly explains your affection for Rex.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

So let's get this straight. Tom Brady winning a Super Bowl throwing to Troy Brown isn't a great feat but Jay Cutlers play this year has been a "miracle"?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I wasn't talking about this year. I was talking about when Brady won a Super Bowl with Troy Brown as his #1 receiver.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!