In my opinion, Mike Brown was clearly outcoached last spring when the Cavaliers lost to the Magic and the Ron Jeremy-looking Stan Van Gundy in the Eastern Conference Finals. If Brown doesn't get Cleveland to the NBA Finals this June and win the NBA Championship in what could be LeBron James' last season on Lake Erie, Mike won't be far behind the Bulls' own Vinny Del Negro on the unemployment line.

I cant believe I ranked Woodson higher than Doc Rivers. I know Nas/Hova loves to harbor 5 year old perceptions and wont change his mind on anything or anybody, but Doc Rivers is really not a bad coach. He's a KG injury away from probably working on a 3 peat and hasnt lost a playoff series since he's gotten his big 3. Thibodeaux helps him tremendously, and his offensive gameplan and timeout management arent great. Im not saying he's a great coach, but he is a good coach I think. The attitude and development of that team really has been great. I even think he's handling his rotation this postseason better than ever before as a coach.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Woodson got schooledby Sklies. He's not much better than Vinny even

I'm coming around a bit on Doc as well

Doc isn't coaching. The Big 3 run the team. Doc just has the title. Doc is one of the top 5 worst coaches in the game. That hasn't changed just because the Big 4 and Sheed are playing well.

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You just quoted David Thorpe in the other thread. He constantly says "The NBA is a coach's league." I dont agree necessarily, but every coach is highly involved in his team's performance. Because his team was awful and you thought he sucked as a coach a few years ago, it's unfair to just say "He sucks, it's not him, it's the players" when he turns it around. He hasnt lost a playoff series when he's had his horses healthy the last 3 years. He definitely has a big impact. Either you have to be purposefully ignoring what he does during games, not watching the games, or not able to comprehend what a coach does during a game in order to believe he is still one of the 5 worst coaches in the league. I know it's not the latter, so you're either too stubborn to admit you were wrong, or just havent gotten around to watching a C's game in the past few years. I know it still eats away at you that Doc outcoached your hero in the Finals.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Phil hadn't had the opportunity to turn Gasol and Odom into men and Bynum was injured. Phil hasn't lost a series with Bynum and Gasol playing. I just believe the Doc is nothing more than a monkey coaching the team. I really believe the Big 3 have more to do with the direction of the team than he has ever had. Not saying I couldn't be wrong but this is what I strongly believe. I seen his act in Orlando and Boston and I really don't believe a light bulb popped on and he became a good coach. It was more like 3 potential HoFers were put together.

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I don't know that he's a bottom 5 coach, but I do know that he was an idiot until Garnett and Allen showed up.

None of whom were still in their prime. Also that required PP and Allen significantly adjusting their games. I believe that Boston right now has one of the best defensive teams of the past several years. Perkins and Rondo are two main reasons why, I think Doc and his staff did a great job with them. Especially Rondo. Since him and Doc haven't always had a rosy relationship and he still credits him with his development I give Doc alot of credit for that. Rondo was extremely raw just two years ago.

Also didn't Phil have Odom for like 3 years by that time?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

It takes awhile for some people to grow up. I believe Rondo is the BEST defensive PG in the NBA but that doesn't mean Rivers had anything to do with it. Hell Rose praised Vinny when he left. A good coach wouldn't continue to hold Rondo back when it is obvious to many that he is the best player on the team. Rondo is treated like a freshman.

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i havent seen him do anything boneheaded handling the celtics that would make him a terrible coach. sure, 3 of his players are potential HOF's, but they are winning. if they were LOSING due to dumb decisions, THAT would make him a shit bottom-5 coach.

as far as rondo goes, rivers stuck with him down the stretch in their championship year when he was struggling and couldnt BUY a basket that wasnt a layup. i think the confidence he showed in him then definitely played a part in rondos development as a player, and also gained rondo respect as a important piece of the puzzle.

is he a great x's and o's guy? i dunno, he may not be, im not a big enough expert to break that down. he has the ear and respect of that team though, and when the talent is that good, that is what you need the most, a guy to keep them all on the same page and driving forward. you can tell that they all have each others back just watching and listening to them talk and jaw at each other. you can also tell that all three (garnett, allen and pierce) are perfectly happy trading personal stardom for winning, and i think doc plays a part in that, too.

Definitely not but IMO you nailed why he has become a decent coach. His offensive game plan isnt hard to figure out at all, but he is an excellent intangibles coach that seems to have genuinely paid off on his players in terms of hustle, swagger, defense, and winning.



1.) I think it's interesting you brought up Rose/Vinny. I think Rose has demonstrated the talent and desire to be a superstar, yet hasnt developed as rapidly as many others do. I think this is a clear indication of lack of coaching by the staff.

2.) I used to hold the exact same opinion you did of Doc. You might remember me bringing up Thibodeaux in every single Bulls Coaching Vacancy thread a couple years ago. But his job against LA in the Finals planted seeds of doubt in my mind and he has continued to impress me with the job he's done the past couple years dealing with a difficult blend of declining veterans.

3.)I dont think he's holding Rondo back at all. I think he has developed him at a perfectly appropriate pace. Rondo still is unsure sometimes that he is the best player on the team and it's evidenced by the way he handles himself. In Game 5 you saw his awesome potential. I think you'll see alot of that in the next few years. The first half of Game 6 he looked like a guy playing under too much pressure expecting to repeat Game 5's performance. He's still young and is handling taking the keys of the car from 3 HOF'ers still not completely ready to hand them over.

Also I'm not even sure there's a close 2nd in terms of best defensive PG.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Alright Nas I'll concede that it was ironic timing on the Doc love. He had an awful game yesterday despite the win. Mainly how he handled Perkins. Dwight was absolutely destroying it and he's the only one that can guard him and I was almost screaming at the TV after foul 4 and 5 to take him out. That was terrible. Other than that he also screwed up a couple big times in the 4th.

Still, your boy SVG did alot worse. That was just such an awful coaching performance. The blandest offense I've seen them play in awhile. Jameer and Rashard were being used terribly and couldnt get going whatsoever. Stopped going to Dwight down low in the 4th when he was having a repeat of Game 6 against the Cavs last year. JJ got pretty hot in the first half then they instantly stopped going to him. Misused timeouts in the 2nd half. I'm blaming him partially for JJ fucking up so bad on the last possession. Phil and Pop coached teams dont do shit like that in the Conference Finals. I know you're stubborn but it's hard for you to even defend him as the 6th best coach in the NBA after that job last night.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That was terrible. Not sure what the hell is going on with the Magic.

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Same answer.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

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One more thing about Doc vs SVG.

SVG is clearly the better X's and O's guy. Doc is clearly the "inspirational, motivational" Pat Riley type coach. I think both types have their ups and downs. My biggest problem with SVG and why he isnt getting nearly as much blame as he needs to is that he's doing a horrible job on the x's and o's in this series. He hasnt adjusted whatsoever and generally doesnt look like he has any idea how to go at this Boston D. He hasnt had one creative idea on how to get Jameer and Rashard easier points against Rondo and KG. So since he is egregiously fucking up the only thing he's actually good at this series, and he's doing just a miserable job in the other departments, I dont understand how he's not one of, if not THE, main storyline of this series. Nas you cant tell me if you were a player that you'd rather follow SVG to the promised land than Doc.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm not really a rah rah type of guy. That has never done anything for me. Maybe that is why I don't give Doc the credit you do. I like information and I like a lot of it. Teach me how to become better. You shouldn't need anyone to motivate you to play for a championship. IMO there is an expiration date on motivational speeches.

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Stan Van Gundy is also a rah-rah guy. Actually he's more like a wha-wha guy. I fucking can't stand him and I'm glad he is getting pwned.

Two bad coaches in the eastern conference finals...

It's really not even rah-rah that Doc does though. And really the impact of his philosophy on basketball has clearly been shown. Zach touched on it but SVG whines constantly, has one of the most uncomfortable voices ever, always looks sweaty, nervous and uncomfortable. Master of Panic indeed.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I agree. I think it runs in the family.

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i couldnt disagree more with this. at this point of the season, coaching is more motivational than x's and o's. these guys know all the plays. doc rivers or SVG arent, during a time out, all of a sudden teach someone how to box out or how to run a pick and roll or inbound a pass or run a play. each coach has his own style of how to get these guys to draw deep to get that last blast of energy from these guys. i have been watching the celtics and doc rivers during this run, and he seems to really have a great feel for this team and how to maximize the effort, i think he really is a master of this. it works GREAT when you have such a talented team. this kind of coach could be a complete failure on a young inexperienced team. he just happens to be good with THIS kind of team. that doesnt make him a crappy coach, and it doesnt make him a great coach. it is just what he does well.

when i get a call in for a review or a chat with my boss, and he tells me i am doing a good job, that absolutely motivates me to take on more and strive to do even better. that gets me going big time, i like positive energy that way, it keeps me driving forward, and i am sure he knows that and plays on it. im almost 40, and that is what makes me tick and probably will continue. others are different. the people who report to me each get handled differently in this regard. my job is a lot more than teaching x's and o's of how to do the job. it is a lot more motivational and how to get the most out of each employee.

That's fine. That works for you and many other people. Just doesn't do it for me. I couldn't care less if someone told me I was doing a great job. That may actually cause me to slack off. That's why I don't need to hear it. I get paid to work hard. My family depends on this. That's my motivation. In the NBA they get paid a lot of money to win games. Nothing is more important than a championship. I wouldn't want players on my team that needs a coach to motivate them in the Conference Finals.

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But you never answered my main question. You had SVG ranked 21 spots ahead of Doc. Let's say the motivation/chemistry thing doesnt matter like you say(which I'm pretty surprised by). SVG is STILL getting outcoached by Doc from an X's and O's standpoint this series. Eventually you will have to budge.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I really don't think he is. I think it has more to do with what the players are playing. Lewis has a bigger contract than Kobe and he is playing like a first year player. You can't coach what's inside of guys. Reddick made an error that he probably never made in his life that may have cost them the game. Vince Carter channeled his inner Nick Anderson. These things didn't have anything to do with coaching. Is Dwight Howard really a star player? STOP FUCKING LAUGHING ALL THE TIME!

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the cavs could have used a coach to motivate them to all, collectively as a team, NOT roll over to the celtics in the closing minute of that series.

I agree. I really think it was as simple as having an NBA head coach. Mike Yellow isn't that guy.

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you could have left it brown....

Well this was one of the best offensive teams in the league, actually one of the best of the past few years. It's because of Boston's defense that the Magic are playing this bad. It's not like they all just decided to collectively suck. Rondo is shutting down Jameer, and SVG isnt putting Jason Williams in more(a better distributor and much more needed against a team like Boston). He's not setting up plays for Rashard, just letting him try to get his points his own damn way. He stopped going into Dwight when Dwight was killing it in the 2nd half, the only time in this series that Orlando had a consistent thing working.

VC didnt tap his inner Nick Anderson. He channelled his inner-VC. That's what Vince Carter is. Of course he missed those FT's. That game was a perfect paralell in a microcosm of VC vs. PP's careers.

Say what you want about JJ not doing that ever before, but time and time again the NBA shows us that teams generally adopt their coach's mindset. If JJ had been playing for Phil/Pops/Brown/Sloan there's not a doubt in my mind a TO would've been called before the ball hit the court.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

it's also that Orlando may not be *that* good...yes I'm about to disparage my Hawks but through the 1st few rounds they had it easy. Nelson had a field day against Bibby and even Felton/Augustin. Neither frontcourt presented any challenge for Howard.

I'm not saying they suck or anything, but they did have a pretty easy road to the conf Finals and now that they're facing a team that a) has a center who can at least guard Howard straight up and b) a PG who can neutralize Nelson and outplay him, they're in trouble

Is Howard really a star or just a great defensive player? As good as he is I think I would rather have a guy like Noah on my team.

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