Look again, and single out one stat: interceptions. He threw 12 all season, and Grossman has 14 through 11 games. You seem to want to ignore the interceptions, but you have to realize, they're why Grossman isn't very good. If you ignore the interceptions, Grossman is very good. But interceptions are the difference between being a good QB and being a bad one; they're the difference between being a SB contender, and another one-and-done. Grossman just turns the ball over too damn much. His play is OK otherwise, but not good enough to make up for the turnovers.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Couple things Nas.

I saw that game and I also saw two dropped interceptions. Maybe you were watching the wrong game as we've found out lately you seem to drink more than you can handle when watching Bears games.

And to add to the interceptions of Grossman, don't forget to add his fumbles on to how many turnovers he's had this year. I want to say there have been 3 lost fumbles....

I'd say at least 300+. That is the standard for a big game for a quarterback. Brees has had 3 straight over 300, for comparison. Now, he's had some interceptions too, but that's the sort of monster yardage that can actually make up for interceptions. Rex never gives you that kind of yardage, even in the good games (best game, 289 yards).


Who cares whether they're down or not? The bottom line is he struggles in the 4th quarter. They were down in the 4th quarter last night, and look what happened: he threw an interception on his first pass of the final drive.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Yeah, 7 fumbles, 4 lost.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Something you guys forget. Brady has played a couple shitty games this year. He didn't play great yesterday. Grossman and Brady both played against tough defenses. Of course I'm not comparring Rex to Brady but everybody says Rex can't handle pressure. Guess what, alot of QB's can't handle pressure.

Only one QB wins the Super Bowl every year. Does that mean all the rest of them suck. No.

McNabb, Manning, Briese, have never won Super Bowls. Do they suck?

On the other hand Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Does that mean they are hall of famers?

Grossman has the defense Dilfer and Johnson had when they won it. That's why he can. I think he's way better then Dilfer and can be similar to what Johnson was with the Bucs a couple years ago.

But to get back to the point of how crucial interceptions are in a game, 500 yards can't make up for it either. The Saints lost that football game. Drew Brees threw two interceptions in his endzone in that game. That cost them at the least 6 points (worst case scenario being two 30 made 30 field goals if not intercepted), but most likely 10-14. I think this is a good point to fight back at Nas is that 500, hell 600 yards won't make a difference if in the end you are looking at killer interceptions.

Can Grossman lead us to the super bowl? Sure. The defense is that good.
Can we win a playoff game with 4 turnovers by the QB? Not a chance.
Can Grossman go three straight games without four turnovers in the playoffs? I don't think so but maybe he will solve the problems that are very apparent.


I don't trust Grossman to have 3 "not terrible" games in a row. He hasn't done it since weeks 2-5.

The Bears can win a game in which the QB has 0 td's and 0 turnovers. The Bears cannot win a game where the QB has 4 or more turnovers. Dennis Green won't be available to beat in the playoffs.

Bears fans....haha. This is truly too funny. I can't wait to be acting like this come April once the Cubs start playing.

Nas does bring up a good and simple point guys. Rex does score points. When you look at Bears teams of the past 10-15 years for that matter, scoring points with the offense has always been a difficult and usually unsuccessful task. Whether he is throwing picks or not, this is the most consistent the Bears have been as far as scoring points for quite awhile.Sure they've had some games with low point totals, but who hasn't this year. The Colts have been held to 13 points this year. Defense has been up with the NFL having more shutouts in the season than I think in the history of the game. I believe Rex will learn from his mistakes and taking him out now for Greise to play now could be a huge mistake. I think you've got to wait this thing out a couple more weeks. If he plays bad at home against bad teams, then maybe, just maybe this thing needs to be reconsidered. But you guys are talking about the Patriots @ New England. You're talking about a Miami defense that has played very well all year long, even when they have been on the field way more than their offense. I think everyone needs to stop being so prematurely reactionary to all of this. The Bears played the Patriots close at New England. To me, that's an achievement in itself. And that was what, Rex's 18th start ever? Again, a couple more weeks...

It's more than the interceptions, or put it this way, the interceptions are the symptom not the illness.

It really is appearing that Sexxy Rexxy is just not that good of a quarterback. The key thing is, he has no pocket presence, which is way compounded by no mobility which is hugely exacerbated by terrible play making.

Look at the two most important plays Tom Brady made yesterday. On one 3rd down, he slid away from Tommie Harris, bought time, and got a ball to an open reciever way down field. On another 3rd down, he ran for 11 when he needed 8 (and juked Urlacher at 5). Does Rex do anything like this?

There is a reason that every week a team looks to have the best pass rush ever against the Bears. Rex. He rarely throws accurate balls on the short passes, negating that way to negate the blitz. Then, all the teams know he's always going all out to the fly. Notice how many times our fly guy was double teamed? A team can blitz the Bears AND have our key recievers in double coverage. Do the math. Something is awry here.

Consistency is the biggest frustration for me with Grossman. He lacks it completely and that's why people have little faith in him to lead the Bears to consecutive wins against quality opponents in the playoffs.

I think people look at Griese as a Dilfer type of QB. Take the sack over the INT. He's more of a manager who most likely wouldn't put the D in tough situations regularly. That, and he's the #2 QB, so he's the most popular player on the roster.

Grossman is capable of putting up big numbers across the board, and winning games. BUT, he's just as capable of throwing 2-4 INTs and CAUSING losses, despite a great D.

_________________

I really don't get this debate. Grossman is an NFL quarterback. So, the argument is that we should go to Griese and simplify the attack on offense so as not to hurt the defense? Does Grossman turn the ball over? YES. So do alot of NFL quarterbacks. Welcome to a passing offense in the NFL, Bears fans. Does he do it too much right now? YES and they need to work on that over the next 5 games. But they are 9-2!

Do we really want to go back to a glorified 2005 Bears offense, don't make mistakes, don't take chances? What happens when the defense makes a mistake? Remember Carolina? We won't be able to use a "conservative" offense to win a game like that.

Why should we voluntarily roll back a significant dimension to our football team? When Grossman is on, the Bears are unbeatable. They rout people. So, why not take the last 5 games to work with Grossman, try to fix the mistakes, let him figure things out and try to fire on all cylinders come playoff time.

_________________
My Maserati does 186.

[quote="MattInTheCrown"]I'm listening to the Patrick show right now, and he brings up another salient point that I had forgotten: Rex's 4th quarter stats. They're off-the-charts bad. That's not a reassuring thing; basically, if the Bears are in trouble in the 4th quarter, they're straight fucked/quote]

I think his 4th quarter stats are a little misleading. While he hasn't been great, he's only had 4 4th quarters that have mattered this year (Vikings-Good; Miami, Arizona, NE-Bad). All of the other games he hasn't had to do much, so there hasn't been much to rate.
That being said, he still needs to get better.

_________________
"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

[quote="Woodridge Ryan"]

Nas does bring up a good and simple point guys. Rex does score points. When you look at Bears teams of the past 10-15 years for that matter, scoring points with the offense has always been a difficult and usually unsuccessful task. Whether he is throwing picks or not, this is the most consistent the Bears have been as far as scoring points for quite awhile.quote]

i agree rex scores points but does he score them when they need them? rex simply can't get the job done once it comes to the 4th quarter. brady had a bad game last night but when the game was on the line he made things happen. that's the difference between a winning quarterback and a good one. i'm not saying griese can do this but let's at least give him a chance before the playoffs start.

I agree, but what kind of "test" will he get against "quality" teams such as: MIN, STL, TB, DET, & GB.

He might as well come practice against my flag football team.

_________________

Imagine this scenario: the defense intercepts three passes, and gives the offense the ball in the other team's redzone 3 times. The quaterback has 3 touchdowns and 200 yards for the game. Is that a great game for the QB? I don't think so.


I'm glad he had 3 touchdowns, but I don't think it means he had a great QB performance. That's all I'm saying here. The fact of the matter is that he doesn't have a single 300 yard game. He's put some points on the board, but largely due to the defense and special teams giving them great field position.


Same as I expect any other time. If they're conservative and mostly hand off and throw short passes, the rating shouldn't drop. Obviously, Rex has thrown a lot of incomplete passes and interceptions in the 4th quarter, despite the fact that the pressure was off in many of those games.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

because he's proven over the past 6 games that he can't fix the mistakes. time to move on and see if the griese pick-up was worth it.

Are you guys any good?

Also, apparently if you light up TB, then you can punch your ticket for Canton. Just ask Tony Romo. Wait, wrong thread.

I agree the competition isn't stellar, but I still hold that Grossman adds a dimension that Griese doesn't. So far this year it has been a dimension that has been good enough to win 9 times out of 11.

_________________
My Maserati does 186.

Big deal. They were 11-5 (could easily have been 12-4, had they not sat their players) last year. Were you satisfied because they had a good regular season record?


Let me ask you this: which do you think is more likely, the offense losing a game for the Bears, or the defense losing a game for them? I'll take my chances with the defense all day long. The defense has been far more consistent, and far better, not just for this season, but for the last several. If the offense is going to turn the ball over all day long and shit on the defense, you've negated your greatest strength.


Who says that you'd be "rolling back" anything? Don't you think it's possible that Griese could score as much, with fewer turnovers? I do. I don't know if it's the case, but then, neither do you, the coaching staff, or anyone else. I want to find out. I know what we have with Grossman: big play potential with tons of costly mistakes. Let's see what we have with Griese, I say.


What if playoff time comes, and they haven't fixed the mistakes? Then, it's too late to even try and go to Griese. I think they'll do what you're saying, sadly. They'll stick with him come hell and high water (they'll blow at least one of these last 5 games against shitty teams), and the playoffs will roll around, and Rex will be exactly as we see him now. They'll get a buy for the first round, and again be trounced at home, probably by the motherfucking Cowboys.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

What dimension is that?


I'd say 8 tops. The defense won that Arizona game single-handedly. In fact, the D won the game in spite of Rex's repeated attempts to lose the game.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Maybe I do. You're right, I don't know. And if we had started the season with Griese, I wouldn't want to change now either. Overall, I like what I've seen from this team. They are a much more complete team than last year and have great potential. I just think it is too risky to make a change now when you have a team that has had as much success as this one has had.

_________________
My Maserati does 186.

Yes. Prior to the quoted sentence I said:



Maybe so, but I feel this year's team is far more likely to go haywire and blow the game for the defense. When you average out its peaks and valleys, its too damn similar to last year's team. Sure, in some games they'll put up 35, but in others (like yesterday, the game against the dolphins, the game against the cardinals, and even to some extent the game against the vikings), they'll waste a great defensive effort and blow the game.


If the offense doesn't turn the ball over, 20 points will win just about every time. Can Griese put up 20 points per game while limiting turnovers? I'm ready to find out.


I don't think they are that much more complete. It looked that way early in the season, but a trend is becoming apparent at the QB position. Other teams figured out after the Cardinals game that Grossman can't deal with pressure. You better believe that playoff teams will pressure him effectively, and I am confident he'll fold up like a card table. The writing's on the wall, and they have an alternative. It makes sense to give it a go, while there's still enough season left to see if it works.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

He fumbled a snap in the redzone and threw 3 interceptions. I'd say most of the responsibility for the loss lies squarely on his shoulders. However:

This I agree with. Surely Turner saw that Grossman was worthless last night, and the running game was working. Why, then, was he so insistent on the pass? On of those series, they had picked up a couple of first downs on the ground, and on the new set of downs, I thought to myself "they're going to run the playaction here, and it's going to fail." Sure enough, they ran the playaction and the pass was intercepted. Irritating.


Can't polish a terd.


How about Smith for the boneheaded "icing" attempt. God, how that pissed me off. I fucking knew he'd hit that second attempt.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

A couple quick stats to compare -

Attempts per interception -
2005 (full season)- 27.9
2006 (11 games) - 25.4

Yards per attempt -
2005- 5.3
2006- 6.9

Passing Attempts / TD -
2005- 38.0
2006- 19.7

Total TDs (Running / Passing )
2005- 22
2006- 26

Yards / Carry
2005- 4.30
2006- 3.60

It seems to me that this is a much more effective passing offense and that is my basis for them being a more complete team. They have more TDs through 11 games than all of last year.

To me the troubling thing about this offense isn't Rex. It is why, with a much more effective passing game are we getting 0.7 yards/carry less from the running game?

_________________
My Maserati does 186.

With that logic, Kyle Orton is better than Griese and should be the number 2. I am sure Orton has a higher winning percentage.

You do not pay a QB 6 million dollars a year if you don't think he can come in and play well. You can all talk about how Griese isn't any good, but the Bears thought he was worth 6 million dollars. If Griese can't come in and put up one or two td's without turning it over 4 times than the Bears are idiots.

Disturbing how close these stats are to each other, don't you think?


This one looks good by itself, until you consider the previous stats. I suspect that this is largely due to Berrian's influence, rather than Grossman's.


But the end result is very little or no better. Why is that? Grossman mistakes. Sure, he scored a ton of touchdowns early in the season against crappy competition, but that doesn't mean a lot now. And it wont mean anything come playoff time. Once the league figured out that Grossman can't take pressure, his success has waned.


Because they're pass-happy. They don't stick to the run because they're so fixated on the fool's gold that is the passing game.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

so griese is bad when you put the pressure on him and he doesn't have a running game. the bears have a running game! rex is bad with pressure and with a running game. take your pick

While all of this Rex talk is good for the boards.. I want to make sure we don't lose sight of a deficiency on the Bears that is as likely to doom the Bears season as Grossman's interceptions. Peanut Tillman.

He has consistently made the defense look subpar at times this year and has been involved in many blown coverages. Yesterday, he seemed to make the decision to play tight on #87, I think, and when he was left stuck in the mud at the line of scrimmage, only a poorly thrown pass by Brady prevented a score.

Well, I'll tell you this: I don't know what Griese can do with the Bears, but I do know what Grossman can't. Grossman will not lead this team to the SB, much less win it; I say that with extreme confidence. It's either try Griese or put off SB hopes till next year, IMO. I say it's worth the chance. Worst case scenario, it doesn't work out, and you now you know.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Actually based on the fact that everyone (generalizing) attributes the Bears success last year on the defense and the fact that the offense didn't want to make mistakes, I would think this number wouldn't be close at all with all the uproar over turnovers this year.

_________________
My Maserati does 186.