So JORR, are you saying that people are Cubs fans because of the Power of Advertising?
Why then aren't you a Cubs fan? I mean, your whole point seems to be that they are popular because of the advertising, and yet you seem to have made your own decision to root for a superior product(in your opinion).

So either the Cubs popularity isn't because of advertising or you've just admitted that you too make your own decisions and don't simply do what advertising tells you.

My question is, which argument do you feel like losing today?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I think it's quite relevant. I'm explaining to enigma that Wrigley was never considered the better park. Are you really suggesting the Cubs chose to play their WS games at an inferior park when both of them were just a few years old?

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Don't take it personally.

I'll take that bet

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I'm guessing it probably had to do with capacity.

What was the capacity of both parks back then?

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Rick, it's tough to argue with you because you think like a chimp. You've clearly stated that you don't seek any knowledge that doesn't directly benefit you. That's very chimp-like. But I'll try anyway.

Of course, people are Cub fans because of "advertising". Just like people are Sox fans because of it. That "advertsing" usually comes in the form of a father or a big brother or a friend "selling" the team to you.

You seem to be confused about my point here. This isn't about the Sox or the Cubs. It's about the way Wrigley Field has come to be viewed. People create phony histories about it in their heads. The "advertising" I'm talking about isn't the kind that is created by Leo Burnett. It's of the "Emperor has no clothes" variety. It's incidental that the Cubs play at Wrigley.

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Don't take it personally.

How are we going to do that? Ship in 100 kids from Senegal?

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Don't take it personally.

It definitely had to do with capacity. But isn't the capacity of Comiskey one of its features?

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Don't take it personally.

I will take you at your word that this is nothing to do about the Cubs or Sox and simply concerns the way people remember Wrigley Field. I guess I would ask why it is so important to you for people to remember it a certain way. Nostalgia makes people remember alot of things as being better than they really were.

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But capacity has nothing to do with whether fans thought one was a bigger dump than the other. Which is pretty much your entire argument.

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I'll leave the logistics to you I am sure someone as well traveled as yourself can ship in 100 children for this social experiment

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I think you're confusing me with C. Howitt Feelz.

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Don't take it personally.

It's a shame that Shawn Kemp no longer posts here.

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I'm assuming that neither was a "dump" in 1918. They were both shiny and new. My argument was only that Wrigley was not considered a superior ballpark to Comiskey when both of them existed. Just like Fenway wasn't considered better than Crosley Field or Shibe Park.

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Don't take it personally.

I think it's important to everyone that we remember things the way they really were. Nostalgia is great as far as it goes. I don't want to piss on Brian Hanley's astrobright memories. But that stuff belongs in your head. When you start speaking out about it like it was a fact, well, that's just bullshit. I remember on my wedding night, my cock was ten inches long. Unfortunately my ex-wife has pictures.

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Don't take it personally.

Fair enough. I will let you continue with your crusade to educate the masses about the way things really were. Best of luck.

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I wouldn't call it a crusade exactly, but if I know the answer, I'll give it to you. And if I don't know, I'll ask and I have no problem deferring. I've asked things here about hockey and soccer and gotten good answers. You don't see me arguing with RPB about All In Together Now. I think that's a recent condition where people aren't really interested in the right answer. They just want to bludgeon the shit out of you with their uneducated opinions.

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Don't take it personally.

The back and forth of opinions is what I like about the place but I do think it gets tiresome when the back and forth just seems to devolve into a shouting contest about who can get the last word without really considering what the other person is saying. I wasn't being sarcastic about wishing you luck getting what you believe about peoples pereceptions about Wrigley out amongst the masses.

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Says the only guy on this board unwilling to admit one of the most widely accepted and provable beliefs in all of American sports. No offense to your brain, but I think mine processes information a little better than yours.
Keep on stretching that definition in a desperate attempt to once again not look completely silly. So what you are telling me is that my father was actually advertising to me when he answered the question "What is your favorite baseball team?" with the Chicago White Sox? Basically, anything that my parents ever told me was advertising? Do you realize how absolutely ludicrous that sounds? When my parents told me that hitting another person was wrong, I guess it was just a public service announcement.
The problem is though that YOU don't view Wrigley that way. The advertising didn't work on you! That's been the whole point all along. You ignored the advertising and instead formed your own opinion. You claimed this to be impossible beforehand but we now have concrete proof of you ignoring "advertising" as you define it. Your whole argument is gone. You overcame the advertising of Wrigley Field and you see it differently. Congratulations JORR! You may have lost yet another internet war but you finally can tell yourself that you aren't a mindless sheep who simply does whatever you hear the people on radio, tv, newspapers say! This should be a watershed moment for you. You finally have proof that you don't do what advertisers say and instead you make your own decisions.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Right on cue Brick

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Well, what would you call it? Did you choose to be a Sox fan with no inputs? You know, a girlfriend broke up with me once because she made the ludicrous statement that her parents allowed her to explore all the world's religions and make her own choice. I said, "But you're Lutheran just like your parents." When she replied that she had studied a lot and came to the conclusion that Lutheranism was the true religion, I laughed in her face and that was the end of us. You sound a lot like her right now.



No one was advertsing that to me. My dad never obsessed over the ballparks. Neither did anyone else I knew. Wrigley was just where the Cubs played and Comiskey was just where the Sox played. I liked going to them both. I still do. But no one ever fetishized the ballparks to me.

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Don't take it personally.

Cool...
Cool story, bro.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This whole foolishness comes down to JORR doesnt think Wrigley is good and thinks the Cell is better. I have no problem with that, that is your opinion and probably is pretty accurate. Going to Wrigley for a Cubs game is a pain and being around a lot of people that dont care about the team makes my head hurt. I do have a problem with telling someone their memories are wrong just because they fondly remember something. Why shouldnt Hanley talk about his memories?

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Did I ever say anything close to "Wrigley isn't good and the Cell is better" in this entire thread or anywhere else on this board? Why do people do shit like this? Can't you have a discussion without making crap up?

Hanley can talk about his memories all he wants, but if they aren't real, I'm gonna call him out.

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Don't take it personally.

Sorry you compared Wrigley and the Original Comiskey and said Wrigley was bad in comparison, my apologies.

His memories ARE real to him, that is the problem here. If he said he remembered the Cubs winning the world series there in 1969 that would be false but his memories of his feelings on attending a game can not be judged as right or wrong.

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I don't necessarily think one park is "better" than another at all. They're different experiences and I enjoy them both. Oddly enough, even though I'm a Sox fan, I often have more fun at Wrigley since rooting for the Sox sometimes feels like a job. It's nice to go to a game where you don't care about the outcome. I never root for the Cubs and I don't root against them either.

As far as Hanley's feelings are concerned, yeah, they're his and he has a right to them. But I really don't think he went to Wrigley and got blown away by the smell of the grass and all of the colors, etc. at the time. I'm telling you, he's only a few years older than I am, and in that time, nobody- NOBODY- viewed it that way. Don't you think I would have felt that way or one of my friends would have felt that way? It just wasn't something that ever would have occurred to a person in the 60s. A ballpark was just where your team played. Hanley was promoting a retroactive memory. It's like someone "remembering" that his dad was the strongest man in the world.

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Don't take it personally.

Don't most people make their childhood memories better than they are? I can remember eating my first Big Mac instead of a Happy Meal and it was the best thing ever. Now i know they are processed crap, but at the time those memories werent bogus, it was just the innocence of youth.

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Oh lord why did you have to mention McDonalds....minimum 10 pages now....

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Uh oh, is that a sore subject with JORR or with the board in general?

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But why is his memory of Comiskey negative and his memory of Wrigley positive? I can assure you the grass was as green or greener and smelled just like grass at Wrigley. The Bossards are the greatest groundskeepers ever, right? Who can even tell me the name of the Wrigley groundskeeper in 1968? Are you telling me this unknown kept his grass greener than the great Gene Bossard?

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Don't take it personally.