If the scouting department is shit and give poor reccomondations to the person with the ultimate decision on the pick, I believe that the value is diminished.

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OK, so using 'make the playoffs' kills the argument, but using performances as a rookie is ok?

I think its fairly safe to say that 95% of the QBs in the NFL would have made the playoffs with that defense. Keep in mind that the one game the Bears loosened the leash on Orton (against Cincy), he performed terribly.

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If your teams GM cant be trusted with draft picks, youre already fucked so dont worry about who the QB is.

It just goes to show that "making the playoffs" is a very poor methodology for judging him. His play significantly improved but it didn't show in playoff appearances.
Once again, that 95% figure you cite shows why judging a QB on "making the playoffs" is a very poor metric. Thanks for the help Frank.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

How is it that the Bears WR's have all regressed & they all look worse than last year?

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

I'm not sure, but they sucked then too.

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I do have to laugh because one of the things they said when the trade was made was "He'll make all the WR's better!". Now, the WR are to blame.

Note: That laugh that I just had is not a personal insult to JORR.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

whats interesting is that this team is turning into the 85 bears in a lot of ways. the defense is strong and they hate their offense. the offense is functional but not great, with a cocky love/hate quarterback (best one since j.m.). even the coaches hate eachother (lovie thinks tice and martz could do a better job with the offense). we could be watching the 84 bears... get some big guys in the middle who give cutler at least 3 seconds and WATCH OUT.

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Interesting parallels, Ike. I like it.

B-Rick - OK, having your fun? I haven't chimed-in on a Cutler-Orton debate since last season. I'll start with a few concessions (concessions, not those other things Jay gets after being smashed around by angry defensemen).

First, Orton has succeeded beyond what I thought he would when the trade was made. I cannot deny that. Now, he does have a system and a strong OL that works in his favor. But, I thought he would strike-out as a full-time starter despite that, and he hasn't.

Second, I thought Cutler's presence on the Bears would upgrade the performance of the players around him, and that hasn't seemed to happen. Hard to say for sure, since I suppose they could potentially suck even more if he wasn't here, but, from a practical standpoint, I concede this point too.

Those points notwithstanding, if I were to wake up tomorrow morning in an alternate universe, and found out I was head coach in the Superbowl later in the day, and I could pick either Cutler or Orton as my QB, I am picking Cutler without hesitation. No question. Period. If he's still post-concussed... maybe even then.

Orton's numbers are quite gaudy through four weeks. But here's the thing. Orton's loudest proponents - of which I believe you are one! - always said to throw the stats out the window, it's only wins that count. Jon Gruden proclaimed "give me the guy that wins!" All the national pundits chanted "all he does is win". Well, he's on a 4-10 run, and now all we hear about is his robust number of passing yards. Uh uh uh, no can do.

Not to mention, despite Orton's numbers, Cutler still had a higher QB rating until the NY debacle (I assume he no longer does, but I didn't look it up). And I think it's only fair to judge the season on the whole, rather than get too excited over 4 weeks. Grossman looked like a first-ballot HOF'er in 2006 through eight weeks, Orton last year with the 6-0... well you get the idea.

I have to give Orton props for doing better than I gave him credit for. But let's not get out of hand.

The single most overrated player in Chicago sports history Kyle Orton. The dick sucking that continues is ridiculous.

He does well in September and OCtober I'll give you that but once Halloween hits forget it.

I will listen to people who question the draft picks but nobody who knows a crap about the game would rather have Orton as QB.

Actually I wonder if people who wish Orton was here actually hate him. He'd be dead right now behind that line. The only reason Cutler isn't is because he has mobility.

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Orton will win games if he doesn't have to be the reason you win. If he has any adversity he and his team crumble as the Bears did in 08 and the Broncos did last year.

Question for Rick. Did the Boilermakers get 10 minutes to get off the filed to stop from getting an offsides called against them when Orton was QB there like they did last night against Northwestern? Okay not 10 minutes but that was a terrible call.

I would say that Matt Forte is more over-rated than Orton. Orton is putting up great numbers...Forte is putting up horrible numbers. Forte sucks & is yet another wasted Jerry Angelo draft pick. I wanted the Bears to draft Mendenhall in the first round in 2008...instead they drafted Chris Williams even though every other team in the NFL know that he had back problems except Angelo.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Even so when was the last time a great running back made or broke a team. I'm pretty damn sure Barry Sanders never won a Super Bowl and is probably the best running back to ever play the game.

Was this a joke?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

double post.
SOSORRY

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Not at all.

Well, I don't think that's completely accurate. No one with any clue would say that the record of a QB is all that matters. I mean, Todd Collins is 1-0 this year. It is a fair point that the Broncos haven't been winning much lately. So let's go ahead and say all those who said "All he does is win" were proven wrong and those who said that he was just a "system qb" or that he didn't have the skills to be a solid NFL QB were wrong.

You could always compare the combined numbers of this year and last year.How stubborn do you have to be to realize that Orton may be developing into a top notch QB. My guess is you haven't seen him play much this year. He is doing things that even I didn't expect. Watch this perfect strike for 48 yards(more than 50 in the air). http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81ad9916/Lloyd-48-yard-TD People always used his rookie year, where he deserved to be benched, and where he was clearly incapable of playing against him. For example, he probably had about 10 snaps in his whole college career not out of the shotgun, but Ron Turner and Olin Kruetz decided that no matter what he was going to be under center. It took him time to adjust but he did have the talent. If you still prefer Jay Cutler that's fine. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm not even ready to say that Orton is a better QB. However, in something that would have been underheard of to say even two years ago, the gap is not that big between the two.
Denver doesn't have a great line either. Cutler may be more athletic but as we saw in the Giants game he wasn't able to actually use it effectively and it may have been a negative because he tried to make plays instead of throw it away.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This is just a bad football thought. If Cutler was putting up numbers like Orton people would be saying "THE BRONCOS WUOLD BE 0-5 WITHOUT HIM!".

It's pretty clear that you haven't watched a single Broncos game this year. The team has played a really tough schedule so far and the offense is the passing game is all that has been good for them. After the Jets game, the schedule gets easier. Let's see how he does "after Halloween". I have no idea what you are talking about.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Neither does she

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So I looked into it a little more, and I now know what you are talking about.

Ironically, this rule seems to have been created in least in part because of how Joe Tiller used to try and exploit substitutions for his advantage. I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

Basically, Purdue would bring in a two tight end set and run the ball right down the middle. Immediately, they would bring in 5 WR and do a mass substitution and snap the ball as quick as they could. The opposing defense would be unable to make an adjustment and you'd have 5 WR against a defense that had personnel for a power running game.

So now, when the offense makes a substitution or even shows like they are going to make a substitution it is the job of the officials to make sure that the defense has enough time to react.

It was not a terrible call. It was the right call because otherwise the game would be filled with penalties like that or the defense would really be at such a disadvantage.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Clearly a lot of us were wrong about Orton,

I've heard one argument that Orton is simply playing come-from-behind football every week to put up his numbers is crazy. The guy had 130 yards and a TD passing against the #1 ranked overall Defense in the NFL at halftime this past week. That is not playing from behind.

Since the start of 2009, Orton has thrown for 5,900 yards, 25 TD's, and 13 INT's with a passer rating hovering around 90.

That means that over that stretch, dating back to the start of last season, he's throwing for 280 yards a game with a 2:1 TD to INT ratio, and an excellent passer rating, all while completing nearly 2/3 of his attempts for more yards per completion that just about any QB in the NFL.

So far this season, just his second in that Offense, he's having a Pro Bowl season, on pace for over 5,000 passing yards with a nearly 3:1 TD to INT ratio and a passer rating just shy of 100.

He is ranked among the top 10 QB's in Completion Percentage, Yards, Yards per Completion, TD's, least number of INT's, plays over 20 yards (#2), plays over 40 yards (#1), and passer rating.

Also, the argument that he's just throwing a lot doesn't hold water, since his number of attempts per game are on par with other top QB's like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Tony Romo.

Essentially no matter what he does, some will never change their mind.

The guy is blowing it up in that Offense. Maybe it's the system, blah, blah, blah.

The bottom line is that if nearly a season and a half of production at a high level is insufficient to change minds, combined with a Pro Bowl pace this year, then you are simply refusing to admit your error. Plain and simple.

superbowl. 4th quarter. ball on 24yd line. who do you want, jay or kyle? thats all. peace

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Grossman.

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Neither.

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Its not in the Red Zone either way, but I think he's saying 76 yds away.

What a stupid statement. Cutler an "elite" QB then you say he hasn't harness his full potential. So which is it? Just saying he's an elite QB made me laugh. Yeah he's right there with Peyton, Brees and Tom. Like folks have said he never did shit in Denver. And I was one who hated the trade. Maybe Cutler should be in a "system" like Kyle.

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