What a terrible job by Philadelphia management on this one. They got absolutely hosed in this deal. 2 draft picks that will both be in the late 20's, a washed up PF with an expiring contract, and a better than average PG with a sizable contract.

Denver just made themselves a legitimate contender and gave up next to nothing. Those 2 picks are highly likely to fall between 25-30. Joe Smith was not a crucial part of their rotation, and even losing his expiring contract doesn’t matter because they’d be over the cap next year anyway. Andre Miller is a decent player, but Iverson will play the same position for them and is obviously a hell of a lot better.

To me the big story is that they are likely to finish with the worst record in the league, thereby positioning themselves to get Greg Oden.

_________________

I'll hold off judgement to see what they do in the free agent market with the Joe Smith slot.
If they somehow land Billups, Bibby or VC than the trade was OK.
However, taking their recent history into concideration, they will do nothing which will make this a 3rd degree burn.

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”

This was likely to happen regardless. The point is that the pick(s) they received should have been in the lottery, in the Greg Oden sweepstakes. If they wanted to get their own pick at the top, the could have just Keyshawned his ass and held out longer. They just gave away one of the league's best players for a pile of dogshit. And if they hadn't handled the thing so poorly, maybe a 3rd team could have come on board to make the transaction less lopsided. As it stands, Denver just got a remarkable upgrade at the guard position for a nominal price. Philadelphia cleared a moderate amount of cap space (which they have little use for anyway until Chris Webber is off the books in 2008), and received 2 picks of minimal value. Bad trade.

Midget made the same point that I made in the other AI thread. Getting rid of him and being god awful means more lottory balls. Thus they have the best chance for Oden. That is the key to the trade. Once AI anounced he wanted to be traded the team had no leverage. You guys don't understand that. The few teams that wanted him--it was only 2 or 3 guys-- knew they could rape Philly. And Philly knew they'd get raped. You never get equal value when you trade a 10 year veteran star. Never. It's also cap releif. Once again insuring the best chance at Oden was the key.

Those two late first round picks will be like the late lottery picks from this eyars draft. This year was the first year that High School guys couldn't come out. All of those guys will be coming out next year and they'll be in good shape to take a flyer on two guys.

_________________
"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

Just watch Iguodala thrive with AI gone and Miller as his PG.
This guy is a ligitimate 22-25 ppg scorer who wasn't getting the shots he needs.
This is the one guy who benefits in this trade.

_________________
“Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend - fudge.”

I understand it perfectly well. What you fail to understand is that this was a horrible business decision. They are already god awful, and would have continued to be so, with him deactivated. Forcing this through was a terrible manuever. They could have, and should have, gotten a much better return on this deal.



Scott, the draft will be deeper, but that comparison is an exaggeration and you know it. This draft has 3 special players, and the rest is a crapshoot like any other year.

I agree with much of what you say in this thread, but I don't understand why you're so sure they could have gotten more in return for AI. It was clear Philly was operating from a position of weakness, so how could they have positioned themselves better. This is not a rhetorical question, as I have not been following this story very closely, so you may be aware of options that I am not.

_________________

There tickets were already sold for the games they deactivated Iverson. Plus by playing him they risked injury. Can't trade him if he's hurt. They were bad with him so they weren't going to sell any more tickets. They haven't won a game without him so they are closer to Odem because of that. No they wouldn't have had the worst reccord with him playing the entire year. A lottory team with him for sure but not the worst team. By deactivating him they took losses insuring more so that they will have the worst reccord.

The worst thing you can be in the NBA is a 30-40 win team. You have to hit rock bottom. Maybe they could have gotton a couple of veterans but that would have prevented them from hitting rock bottom and put them behind in eventually winning a championship. Now the lottory balls might not bounce there way. But they put themselves in the best spot.

Wow. That's a bad move. With Livingston, Maggette, Iguodala and Oden, they could've established a formidable team.

_________________

Good point by Mustang Rob, I think Igoudala will prove to be a pretty good scorer now, he'll definetly be helped. And the Oden angle doesn't make any sense to me, they were awful already and will continue to be, they're going to get their lottery balls, that shouldn't really have any bearing on the trade. And with all this Oden talk, there is still a chance he could land with the Bulls.

I'm still not sure about this from Denver's end. It sure looks like a slam dunk and everyone is saying the right things, but I want to see how Melo and AI interact. We're talking aobut the 1 and 2 scorers in the league, and someone who takes a shot every 2 minutes. I'm not saying I don't think it can work, I'm just skeptical. I think it certainly catapults them into the top 4 or 5, I'm just not sure it puts them ahead of Phoenix, Spurs, Mavs, or even the Jazz. Plus with all the suspensions, and already a quarter of the season gone, there won't be a whole lot of time for everyone to gel

SB, perhaps a slight exaggeration, but I was just trying to make a point that this years draft will be deeper and the picks are more valuable than in most years.

_________________
"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

Dallas

_________________
"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

I wasn't involved in this thread at the time, but I did post somewhere else on this board that I wasn't a fan of AI and any team that got him would regret it. I recall having this discussion somewhere on here with Nas, who thought AI was such a great player that it would make up for his other deficiencies. It takes more than talent to help a team, but so many people want to look past that. Philly was stuck, and looked to have to unload Iverson without getting much for him. Instead Denver mortgaged their future all for a guy with a bad attitude, questionable game, and big salary. Philly robbed Denver in this deal, not the other way around...but you guys who love talent first and foremost didn't want to pay attention to the baggage AI brought with him.

So let's revisit this a few months later. Philly was stuck and like you guys said, they didn't get much. But it seems they got more long term than Denver. How's it working out for Denver? They have fallen to a .500 record and are 8th in the west. They have the toughest schedule left and likely will not make the playoffs. What was it AI brought to them again? Here is a team with two of the top talents in the league in Carmelo and AI..and they won't make the playoffs. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's because Denver made the same mistake so many other teams have made who have traded for bad people like Starbury and Artest...they want the talent, but don't understand that a bad person will often be a net negative to a team regardless of his talent.

What makes you say Denver won't make the playoffs? Who's going to catch them, the Warriors? Plus, with Melo's suspension and Iverson's bum ankle, these guys have only played a half-dozen or so games together. One thing you're right about, Coast, is that the team definitely has its share of douchebags, I won't dispute you there. Where I will dispute you, is that Philly robbed them in the deal. Typically, the primary objectives when trading a star player are A) cap space, and B) young talent. Philadelphia acquired neither. Andre Miller is on the books until the end of the 2009 season, for a fairly sizable contract. As for the draft, they picked up two late rd 1 picks. Not exactly the type of assets that turn a franchise around.

You can argue that Philly benefited from moving Iverson, and I agree it was probably time for him to go. But, that doesn't automatically mean they received good value in return. People go back to the 2 key talking points: better chance at Oden, more touches for Iguodala. Terrific. Those were 2 assets they already had, their own pick & their own player. You could have traded Iverson for a ham sandwich and produced the same results - better shot at Oden, more opportunities for Iguodala. Plus, you'd have a tasty ham sandwich to boot.

Andre Miller is no ham sandwich. He is at least a Croque Monsieur. I won't dispute your points about the possible long-term value they might have gotten from other deals. I'm talking about the effect of the trade on the teams now. Head to head, it looks like Andre Miller is having a more positive impact on his team than is AI.

To wit: Philadelphia was 5-19 when the trade was made on 12/19. Sixers have gone 13-17 since the trade. Not significantly better, but a little better. I'm not arguing Miller is a better talent than AI. But Miller can take some of the credit for leading Philly to a better record than they had with Iverson. He is the kind of guy who makes his teams better.

Denver was 14-9 when the trade was made. They are 12-17 since replacing Miller with AI. AI is not making Denver bettter. But then my point is that he is the kind of player who won't make any team better. Any team that grabbed him was a dumbass in my world. Denver got the prize.

By the way, I'd say Minny and NO/OKC have solid chances of beating out Denver for a playoff spot.

Coast, I understand the intangibles you're bringing about here, and I do freely admit I wouldn't want Iverson on the Bulls. That being said, a few quick thoughts in response to your post...

A) Your stats are a bit misleading. Iverson sat out 8 games for Philly early this season, including 6 during their low point where they lost 11 in a row. As for Denver, Iverson joined the team immediately following the wave of suspensions from the Nuggets/Knicks "fight". Missing key players, it's unfair to pin their record during this stretch entirely on Iverson. In the same light, it's not entirely accurate to claim Philly is playing better with Miller. Their record is improved (and bully for them), but they didn't have Iverson for many of those early contests. So, in essence, Philly is playing better with Andre Miller than they were with a shitball reserve player like Kevin Ollie splitting time with a lame duck AI. This shouldn't come as a big surprise.

B) The ham sandwich remark was not aimed at Andre Miller, but rather aimed at the suggestion that the trade was great for Philly because of the effects on both Iguodala and their draft pick. Without getting into subjective opinions as to how we may feel about AI, here are the indisputable facts: #1 - Philadelphia saves approximately $9 mil per year over the next 3 years by swapping AI's contract with Miller's. That's nice for the ownership that writes the checks. However, it does nothing for them in the department of cap space. Philadelphia won't be a player in the FA market until the 2008-2009 season, and even then, they project to have less than $10 million in cap space. $10 mil doesn't take you very far in today's market, and it will accomplish even less 2 years from now. Unless they're able to dump Samuel Dalembert's contract, it's doubtful the Sixers will be able to improve the team outside of the draft. #2 - Philly did not gain much in the way of young talent through this deal. Now, if Denver absolutely tanks and lands in the tail end of the lottery, it's possible that Philly could obtain some value there. If the Nuggets right the ship and hold on to their 7th seed (or better), that pick will come in the late teens or early twenties, where the prospects are less than spectacular. By the way, the other pick they received comes courtesy of Dallas, so it will likely be the last (or close to it) selection of the 1st round.

C) It's not always a situation of one team wins, one team loses. Sometimes, both teams win. Sometimes, both teams lose. If this deal turns out to be a failure for Denver, I'd consider it a lose-lose on both ends. While ditching AI should prove beneficial to Philly in the long run, I'm still convinced they did not get enough back for him. At the very least, they should have gotten cap relief. By the time Miller comes off the books, they'll be on the hook for a big fat extension to Iguodala. Philly is banking on Iggy, and hopefully Oden or Durant, as the future of their team. Not bad to build around, but they'll need more than that to be legitimate contenders. And considering their odds of landing either prospect are only about 25%, looks more likely that they'll be building around Iguodala, somebody like Joakim Noah, Kyle Korver, Andre Miller, Samuel Dalembert, etc. Not a real dangerous team in my estimation. If they had the cap space to push for a Chauncey Billups or a Rashard Lewis this offseason, I'd say the future was brighter, but the reality is, it's not. And by the way, Denver didn't "mortgage their future" for Iverson. With heavy contracts committed to Carmelo, Camby, Nene, KDdidit, and Iverson/Miller, they were already well over the cap and would have remained so for several years. Basically, they gave up two late rd 1 picks in order to take a flyer on one of the greatest players of the last decade. And while your "it takes more than talent to help a team" argument is duly noted, Iverson did manage to carry the Sixers to the NBA finals, which is more than most NBA players can say, even the upper echelon ones.

In a way, this whole thing is comical to me. I've never really liked AI, and never imagined I'd devote this much time to defending him. I'm certainly not arguing that he's a team player, nor am I suggesting that Philly should have kept him. I'm just absolutely blown away by the lack of value they got in return, and was even more taken aback by the amateur manner in which Philly management/ownership handled the whole transaction. It could have gone much smoother, and if they played their cards right, they could have gotten more back (perhaps a frosty brew to go with that ham sandwich).

And on a side note, I do hope that Minnesota catches them (if not Denver, then passes Golden State for the 8th seed). The T'Wolves owe a pick to the Clippers for that hideous Marko Jaric trade in 2005. It's lottery protected, so I'd love to see Minny get the 8 seed, get bounced by Dallas in round 1, lose yet another draft pick (see Joe Smith debacle), and then ultimately lose Garnett to the Bulls this upcoming offseason.