Whoa, whoa, now be fair BM. That is precisely what the debate was about when the trade was made. If you personally weren't partaking in that part of the argument, that's fine (if I have time I'll dig up the old threads ), but it's revisionist history to deny that "wins vs. stats" was exactly what NFL Nation was debating. It was all over this board, it was on WSCR, and it was all over the national media.

Guys like Dungy, Jaws, Gruden, Brennaman, Al Michaels, et al, were all claiming that Orton's wins were the most pertinent stat of all. I still remember on MNF when Orton beat San Diego to go 6-0, Gruden proclaimed "forget the other guy with the arm and the stats, GIVE ME THE QUARTERBACK WHO WINS!!!".

The Score had media experts on all the time that were chiding Chicago for foolishly believing in stats more than Orton's winning percentage. There were articles about it on ESPN and other websites all the time. It's only now that Orton has 5 wins in his last 18 games that we don't hear this anymore.





Well then to be fair, Cutler didn't have much of a running game last year to support him, either. Jaws didn't take that into consideration that when he broke down Cutler's picks and claimed that 26 of the 27 were 100% Cutler's fault. Billick didn't take that into consideration when he said Cutler was turning into Jeff George.



That is true, and helps point out how stats can be misleading. At least you agree that wins/losses for a QB can be quite misleading, too. Now if only we could educate the NFL pundits.

Did you honestly just cite Gruden as evidence?

There were and probably still are people who think that win/loss record is the only real thing that matters. It's stupid though and it was then. It's just one component to judge a QB. Orton has taken a hit on that aspect but has certainly improved statistically.
I know you know this, but the reason that they no longer cite his win/loss record is that it doesn't really show he is a good QB. People used to say that Peyton Manning couldn't win the Super Bowl. Were you surprised when he did and then people stopped saying it?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes, evidence of a buffoon spouting a buffoon's opinion. I didn't say intelligent people were touting Orton's wins.



No, I'm never surprised when someone retreats from an argument after they lose it. But I am amused that after a year or more of hearing about "the QB who wins" vs. "the QB who only puts up good stats", I am now being constantly reminded of Orton's big stats.

They didn't really lose it though. The evidence changed. The idea was that Orton was a good QB but it was showing up in wins and not in statistics. Now, we see that Orton is actually a good QB so the actual opinion was correct. The argument from the other side was that Orton wasn't that good and his record didn't mean he was. Who would be more correct? Wouldn't it be the ones who said he was good even if the evidence is different now?

I guess you'll have to define what argument was lost. The argument always seemed to be whether Orton was good or not. I know I argued constantly with people who said he wasn't that good, he couldn't throw it past 10 yards, he would be a decent backup, and other things. There were still people that said that Rex Grossman was as good or better than him at that point. Is it your stance that those people lost the argument?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Here are Cutler's stats vs. Orton's stats since 2008. Cutler beats Orton in every category except for interceptions and fumbles. Based on these stats, I would choose Cutler over Orton. Cutler is more mobile, has a stronger arm and has more upside than Orton does and that is through the "eye test".

(Sorry -- If the file upload sucks, please refer to Yahoo Sports Player Stats for each QB.)

This file upload does suck. Post FAIL.

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RFDC thinks I'm retarded.

As an Online Debate Master, I know you're better than this! Are you playing with me!? It's a no-no to cherry-pick evidence to fit a pre-conceived conclusion.



The argument that I'm saying that was lost, is that one that said wins are the most telling stat for a QB. You didn't make that argument, so we're good there. As far as whether or not Orton is good, I still maintain he is not. The one thing he has proven is that he can throw it more than 10 yards. Other than that, has he really done much more than pile up yards between the 20's on a losing team, and continue his penchant for not throwing picks?

The only head coach or GM that seemed to be beating down the doors to get Orton on his team is Josh McDaniels. Which isn't saying much. And, even he felt the need to spend a #1 pick on a QB, and also traded to get Brady Quinn. So...




Cutler:

CLOSE CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
4th Q: +/- 7 pts. 35 56 423 62.5 7.55 38 5 2 3.0 100.5
Last 2 min. of half 28 44 414 63.6 9.41 89 6 2 1.0 115.0


Orton:

CLOSE CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
4th Q: +/- 7 pts. 33 67 366 49.3 5.46 31 1 2 5.0 58.4
Last 2 min. of half 46 83 540 55.4 6.51 44 5 2 4.0 85.4



Grossman's last full season, 2006:
CLOSE CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
4th Q: +/- 7 pts. 18 28 207 64.3 7.39 57 2 2 4.0 80.5
Last 2 min. of half 24 40 317 60.0 7.93 29 4 2 1.0 97.6


Too bad Grossman has a habit of inventing new and interesting ways to turn the ball over, and at horrible times (which is really bad, don't get me wrong), otherwise yes, I think Grossman is better than Orton. Who knows, maybe Grossman will get a shot in Washington next year. Would be interesting.

Basically, I still think Cutler is light-years beyond Orton. I guess the circle of people who disagree with me would include the likes of Thom Brennaman, probably Pep Hamilton, maybe a couple of Denver beat guys. I'm fine with that.

Thanks for the laugh.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Take a look at Erik Kramer's last full season. Maybe he is a better option than Orton now.

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Okay, okay, you guys and Josh McDaniels have a happy new year.

Hopefully Kyle is gracious enough to wish the same for Tim Tebow.

This has nothing to do with the discussion. Why even bring it up?

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I wonder if there is still anyone out there besides Boilermaker and the Chicago media that wishes we still had Orton.

Talk to me next week.

If Cutler plays well next week and the Bears beat the Packers the trade was officially a success. I don't think beating the worst playoff team in NFL history shows it though.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Last stand? I thought you would have said win a SB.

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Cutler had a much better year than Orton.

After Orton was statistically better last year, you were pretty sold on Orton being better.


Who is better today?

If you had your pick going into this game this week who would you take?

It's not a last stand at all. I've been impressed with Cutler all year. I have made very few negative posts about him even after bad games. They paid a heavy price to win games like this on Sunday. If he does, I'll have no problem saying he proved me wrong.
It was close until Orton got benched so they could give Tim Tebow a tryout.
I don't think I have ever, in my entire time here, said that Kyle Orton was a better QB than Cutler. I have said he's playing better but I've considered them relatively equal since the trade happened.
I don't know. Things went bad for Orton at the end of the season but I don't think it was his fault.
I'd take Orton + 2 picks still just like I would have at the end of the season. My opinion changes if Cutler leads us to the Super Bowl over a team that is better than the Bears.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Cutler played really well on Sunday so of course I would pick Cutler to play next week.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

YES
YES

I WIN


jk

BEARS!!!!!!

FYI, an article on espn.com:

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/ ... for-denver

“It’s not difficult to argue who won this trade,” Williamson said. “It wasn’t the Broncos.”

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don