this is silly. world class athletes of all shape and form have been using performance enhancing drugs since the 60s if not earlier. to think they don't help you run faster, swing faster, throw harder is silly. silly silly silly. I will leave it at that.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I thought the whole thing with HGH was that it gave some of these guys increased bat speed so there were able to hit the ball a little further. A juiced ball helped with that a little bit too, along with smaller ballparks no doubt. But it also meant that some of those lazy flyballs they would normally hit now were going into the 2nd or 3rd row of seats in the bleachers.

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Sure, but that's just another way of phrasing it. Bat speed was quicker because they were stronger. Power and strength aren't exactly the same thing but they are pretty highly correlated.

One way to think about it is Olympic lifting. Olympic lifting isn't about being strong, exactly, but generating enough speed to get the weight into position on your shoulders or over your head. But the stronger you are the easier it is to do that.

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Fire Phil Emery

Yes, you're just repeating what I'm saying. Steroids are a great assistant to helping you get stronger. But these guys weren't that strong. Big, yes. Strong, no. If they were benching 2.5 times their body weight and squatting 650 I'd fully agree with you. But their results were something an ordinary guy or a high school kid can do with the right program in a couple of years (if even). I'm sure steroids helped get them there quicker, and they were probably stronger than they would have been given their crappy workout regiments. But their results are easily attainable, and are attained all the time. Yet the homeruns aren't happening.

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Fire Phil Emery

So if Steroids do not really accomplish anything beneficial to the game of baseball then why are/were guys going to such great lengths to use them?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

So are you agreeing with me or defending Kapler?

perception

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Well I think Elmhurst Steve's Softball Hall of Fame should ban that guy. Only way to keep the integrity of the sport intact.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

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Yes, multiple things improved more quickly in the steroids users. They squatted more, and they also had quicker isometric fast force production at the end of six weeks. This isn't a shock. Powerlifters use them for a reason.

1.) Most baseball players train like shit, and because of that they reach the limits of their training at very low levels of potential. Steroids allowed them to do better while still training like shit.

2.) Some players on steroids started doing very well for themselves after starting. As soon as some guys saw that they all wanted in on the action.

3.) Athletes don't need science to do something they think well help, or else they wouldn't do half the stupid things they do, like cork their bats and wear magnetic bracelets.

4.) The effects of steroids, especially with bodybuilder-style training, are very visual. Steroids help allow hypertrophy since you can work the muscles more. But the exercises that create big muscles aren't always the ones that make you strong. Back to point number one.

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Fire Phil Emery

ok just trying to make sure I grasp where you are coming from. So you would attribute Brady Anderson and L. Gonz going crazy at the plate during those years as more to do with a live ball rather than anything they were taking into their bodies?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Do you think Luis freaking Gonzalez is stronger than Ryan Howard or the guys today? Guys like Gonzalez should be a reason for people to pause on all the steroid talk and start thinking about the other possibilities.

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Fire Phil Emery

That is a good point. This has been eye opening for me today. Good stuff IB, see we need you around here.

So then in your opinion do guys like McGuire deserve to be in the HOF?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

See my point about Olympic weightlifting to Frank above. It is no surprise that both improved more in the steroids group. That's what steroids do. I'm saying that when you're not close to genetic potential, what difference does it make? With Mark McGwire's frame he could have benched 600 pounds with sufficient training and steroids. Hell, he could have benched 400 without steroids.

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Fire Phil Emery

I do, but I'd think that even if steroids really were a wonder drug. It's just too hard to sort through the mess. That was the era, for better or worse.

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Fire Phil Emery

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

The thread could have been titled "Champions of the steroid era" rather than worst offenders. Heck, it was entertaining as hell. I don't blame any of them for using, it was an attempt by each to maximize their abilities for the benefit of their teams as well as themselves. It also made watching the games a lot of fun. Sure it cheapened the numbers accumulated by the previous greats of the game and allowed Bonds to pass Aaron for the home run totals, but it was a lot of fun to watch.The game is supposed to entertain the crowds watching it. The game was never more entertaining.

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Go Cubs!!!!

no

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest