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WORST ALLEGED OR CONFIRMED MLB 'ROIDERS?
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:42 am 
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spmack wrote:
Really, Darkside? I can't believe you said that.



You didn't believe the gay poll results?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:43 am 
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:roll:

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:43 am 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Ed_from_Lisle wrote:
A name that doesn't set off many red flags but definitely belongs on this list: Gabe Kapler (allegedly, as I don't even know the guy). Dude played for a lot of teams, including the Rangers in the late 90s/early 2000s and the Red Sox from 2003-2006. Both of those teams were known as hotbeds for allegations regarding PEDs. After the 2006 season, Kapler decided to take his talents to Japan. Hmm... Wasn't that around the time MLB began hitting players hard for failed drug tests? He then returned to the States in 2008.

Anyway, here's a nice pic to illustrate my point.

Image
Damn. That IS a nice pic.

:shock:





Luv ya, luv yer show, SideOfDeef! :wink:



Perhaps "nice pic to illustrate my point" wasn't the best choice of words... :oops:


:lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:44 am 
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Krazy Ivan wrote:
spmack wrote:
Really, Darkside? I can't believe you said that.



You didn't believe the gay poll results?

It was split down the middle.


Hello....

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:44 am 
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Darkside wrote:
:roll:



It's ok, bro...

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:46 am 
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Krazy Ivan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
:roll:



It's ok, bro...

Yeah. If I listed the PM's I got from guys looking to "experiment" after that "gay pole" you'd see some shocking names. I had to say "Not really gay, dude, it was a joke."

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:47 am 
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Text me.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:47 am 
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chas sent you a message too huh?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:50 am 
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spmack wrote:
Text me.

Wasn't the reply to the PM sufficient?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:51 am 
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Darkside wrote:
Krazy Ivan wrote:
Darkside wrote:
:roll:



It's ok, bro...

Yeah. If I listed the PM's I got from guys looking to "experiment" after that "gay pole" you'd see some shocking names. I had to say "Not really gay, dude, it was a joke."


Yeah, I wouldn't be conviced anyone on the board would be discreet about such things. That's a good move by you to get out ahead of things.....so to speak.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:53 am 
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Darkside wrote:
spmack wrote:
Text me.

Wasn't the reply to the PM sufficient?

Well played.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Hi Darkside.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:01 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Hi Darkside. Image

Hey buddy. :drunken:

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:10 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:17 pm 
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everybody in the NBA is on roids. Do they even test for anything?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:45 pm 
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If steroids and strength are so important why don't major league baseball players spend more time doing serious strength training? As far as I can tell very few focus on real core strength work. Seems like that would be an easy ticket to professional success if strength is all that matters.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Eric Walker has done research suggesting that any jumps in power have been due to changes in the ball rather than juicing in players.

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Eric Walker has done research suggesting that any jumps in power have been due to changes in the ball rather than juicing in players.
http://steroids-and-baseball.com

That is my opinion also.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
everybody in the NBA is on roids. Do they even test for anything?

Didn't Rashard Lewis and OJ Mayo get pinched for PED's?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:05 pm 
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spmack wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
everybody in the NBA is on roids. Do they even test for anything?

Didn't Rashard Lewis and OJ Mayo get pinched for PED's?

Lewis for sure. I didn't hear about Mayo.

I fail to see how steroids really helps you in basketball.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Eric Walker has done research suggesting that any jumps in power have been due to changes in the ball rather than juicing in players.
http://steroids-and-baseball.com

That is my opinion also.



Here's the million dollar question- and I suspect it might be a little too early to tell for certain by examining the numbers. Did MLB change back to a less lively ball for purposes of convincing the fans that the "steroid era" had ended, with steroid usage being relatively incidental the entire time?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:10 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
I fail to see how steroids really helps you in basketball.



That's because you've never been shoved out of the paint by Scottie during the second half of his career.

Image
Image

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:13 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
spmack wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
everybody in the NBA is on roids. Do they even test for anything?

Didn't Rashard Lewis and OJ Mayo get pinched for PED's?

Lewis for sure. I didn't hear about Mayo.

I fail to see how steroids really helps you in basketball.



Mayo's Wikepedia wrote:
On January 27, the NBA suspended Mayo for 10 games following a positive test for the steroid dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), which violates the league's anti-drug program. Mayo blamed an over the counter supplement that he didn't know was banned by the NBA for the positive test, but he declined to say which supplement he used.[26] He later said an unnamed energy drink he bought at a gas station contained the banned substance.[25].


No one was ever able to find any energy drink with that steroid in it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Image
I didn't know Ceasar Isturis played basketball.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Eric Walker has done research suggesting that any jumps in power have been due to changes in the ball rather than juicing in players.
http://steroids-and-baseball.com

That is my opinion also.



Here's the million dollar question- and I suspect it might be a little too early to tell for certain by examining the numbers. Did MLB change back to a less lively ball for purposes of convincing the fans that the "steroid era" had ended, with steroid usage being relatively incidental the entire time?

Here's where I stand on steroids:

The main claim of steroids opponents is that they make you unnaturally strong. But the guys who were juicing simply weren't *that* strong. Mark McGwire benched ~300 pounds. That's strong for a regular dude. But give me an ordinary person with decent frame, even with no weight training, and I can get them benching 300 pounds in two years. Granted, most of the strength comes from leg stuff, but from what I can tell baseball players don't squat all that heavy anyway.

These guys who were using steroids had an easier time of getting to OK results because of enhanced recovery. They also got big because of hypertrophy in training. Big does not equal strong. Bodybuilders are surprisingly weak, for example.

If not strength, what is it the steroids would have been doing? Is there some other, more baseball-specific skill that steroids impart? If so, what? I've never heard the claim that steroids were good for anything but raw strength. But if that's true, why aren't the players today who are every bit as strong as the players ten years ago hitting 60+ homeruns? Robinson Cano claims he can bench 500 pounds, and while I really doubt that, he's a strong dude. And whether he's on steroids or not he's not breaking the home run record.

It's also not an answer just to say baseball players thought the steroids were working so they must work. Baseball players thinking corking a bat makes it go further, so much so that MLB had to make this illegal even though it has been shown repeatedly that it is just a placebo effect.

There's got to be something else to the story. Considering that very very minor variations in the ball have caused drastic changes in power and scoring in the past, it wouldn't surprise me whether that was true here also. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature but it wouldn't amaze me if MLB made the ball just oh-so-slightly springier after the lockout.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Ed_from_Lisle wrote:
A name that doesn't set off many red flags but definitely belongs on this list: Gabe Kapler (allegedly, as I don't even know the guy). Dude played for a lot of teams, including the Rangers in the late 90s/early 2000s and the Red Sox from 2003-2006. Both of those teams were known as hotbeds for allegations regarding PEDs. After the 2006 season, Kapler decided to take his talents to Japan. Hmm... Wasn't that around the time MLB began hitting players hard for failed drug tests? He then returned to the States in 2008.

Anyway, here's a nice pic to illustrate my point.

Image


It's well known that Kapler is into bodybuilding too.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature but it wouldn't amaze me if MLB made the ball just oh-so-slightly springier after the lockout.



That's what the numbers suggest. Although no one disputes the usage of PEDs, it is difficult to believe everyone began using them at precisely the same time in 1993.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature but it wouldn't amaze me if MLB made the ball just oh-so-slightly springier after the lockout.



That's what the numbers suggest. Although no one disputes the usage of PEDs, it is difficult to believe everyone began using them at precisely the same time in 1993.

Sure, although I imagine someone will push back that this was when the good ones starting coming out or something, even though the 80s is when all the powerlifting records starting falling like dominos, and those guys don't have the money of professional baseball players.

This is my steroids thought experiment: imagine two athletes with exactly the same height, weight, strength, batting eye, etc. One is on steroids and one is not. Will the steroids player be better? If yes, why (and remember, it can't be strength, since I've said that's equal)? What other thing are steroids doing?

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:40 pm 
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HGH improves your eyesight.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Q.Bovifs wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:



Here's the million dollar question- and I suspect it might be a little too early to tell for certain by examining the numbers. Did MLB change back to a less lively ball for purposes of convincing the fans that the "steroid era" had ended, with steroid usage being relatively incidental the entire time?

Here's where I stand on steroids:

The main claim of steroids opponents is that they make you unnaturally strong. But the guys who were juicing simply weren't *that* strong. Mark McGwire benched ~300 pounds. That's strong for a regular dude. But give me an ordinary person with decent frame, even with no weight training, and I can get them benching 300 pounds in two years. Granted, most of the strength comes from leg stuff, but from what I can tell baseball players don't squat all that heavy anyway.

These guys who were using steroids had an easier time of getting to OK results because of enhanced recovery. They also got big because of hypertrophy in training. Big does not equal strong. Bodybuilders are surprisingly weak, for example.

If not strength, what is it the steroids would have been doing? Is there some other, more baseball-specific skill that steroids impart? If so, what? I've never heard the claim that steroids were good for anything but raw strength. But if that's true, why aren't the players today who are every bit as strong as the players ten years ago hitting 60+ homeruns? Robinson Cano claims he can bench 500 pounds, and while I really doubt that, he's a strong dude. And whether he's on steroids or not he's not breaking the home run record.

It's also not an answer just to say baseball players thought the steroids were working so they must work. Baseball players thinking corking a bat makes it go further, so much so that MLB had to make this illegal even though it has been shown repeatedly that it is just a placebo effect.

There's got to be something else to the story. Considering that very very minor variations in the ball have caused drastic changes in power and scoring in the past, it wouldn't surprise me whether that was true here also. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature but it wouldn't amaze me if MLB made the ball just oh-so-slightly springier after the lockout.

I disagree on the claim that steroids do not impart power. Steroids cayuse a massive influx of water into a muscle, which imparts hydraulic strength. Like any hydraulic system, an overload of solvent would eventually cause such an over-distension of the mechanical parts such that you would see a restriction of movement of the system - a plateau, if you will.

Having more water = having more weight. and we have already established that force = ma. Also, when your base is more sturdy, you can naturally infer that contact with a baseball would be more solid - think of the phrase "firing a rocket from a canoe" to visualize the reverse of the phenomenon that I am highlighting in this sentence. When you have the hydraulic pressure supplying added power, you can lift more (up to a plateau, again), such that you will signal the body to create new muscle fiber (actual fibrile mass).

Another simple observation would be that with your new hydraulic power, you could now employ a heavier weapon (bat), which would further add mass to your force equation.

Now, this all assumes that you are not sacrificing acceleration in this process, and I theorize that acceleration would increase to a plateau point as well, with too much bulk thereby restricting it.

Therefore, based only on the above, and having slogged through the beginning of JORR's article, I would conclude that both factors played a part in the power explosion we just witnessed, but that personal PED-induced enhancement caused certain individual players to compile statistics that set them apart from most of their peers during this period.

That's a whole lot of junk science. But even if it weren't, you kind of just said "but steroids DO make you stronger, and here's how." I'm sure they do. They assist in recovery. They also help in muscle water retention, which is the main reason bodybuilders use them. But what I'm saying is take two people that are equal strength. The steroids person might have an easier time getting there--in fact I'm sure that's true--but these 90s baseball players weren't working at the far right end of the bell curve of strength. A 300 pound bench press by a 225 (250?) pound man is entirely ordinary. An ordinary guy can easy aspire to be as strong as Mark McGuire in a couple of years.

As for HGH and eyesight, 1.) lasik helps eyesight even more, I'd imagine, and 2.) improved eyesight is not the motivation for banning HGH so far as I can tell.

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