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Do you judge people based on their education level?
Yes 33%  33%  [ 14 ]
No 67%  67%  [ 29 ]
Total votes : 43
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:42 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
But the problem is that going to college increases your IQ, given that it varies over time depending on your social and physical environment. So college graduates may be realizing their potential to a greater extent than non-graduates, but they are not genetically superior to non-graduates in the amount of potential they possess.


So, you are saying people are born smart and that cannot be changed, correct?


I am saying the opposite.


No you aren't. You said that going to college increases your IQ so you cannot necessarily use that as a measure since non-graduates do not have that advantage to increase their IQ.

So, despite the fact that non-graduates do not use their potential, you still can't use the IQ test because they possess that potential which invalidates the test.

In other words, two twins have the same "smarts", one goes to college, the other doesn't. The college one has a higher IQ due to environmental factors but is not smarter because they went to college and had that advantage on the IQ test. So, the IQ test is not a valid indicator.


I said one's IQ can vary over time depending on his or her environment. So one's realized intelligence is variable.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:47 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I know IQ is not a perfect metric, but here are some sites that answer the question of who has a higher IQ, high school or college graduates.

http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm
Mean of college graduates, 115
Mean of high school graduates, 105

http://www.2h.com/iq-results-factors.html
Quote:
The educational correlation for IQ test results continues into adulthood, with college graduates typically scoring higher than non college graduates.


Now I already know the response, that IQ does not accurately gauge intelligence. That is a fair criticism and I agree with that. I would however like to know what criteria you would use to gauge intelligence.


But the problem is that going to college increases your IQ, given that it varies over time depending on your social and physical environment. So college graduates may be realizing their potential to a greater extent than non-graduates, but they are not genetically superior to non-graduates in the amount of potential they possess.


Which is exactly why, in response to the original question by FavreFan, that you would assume that a college graduate was smarter than a high school graduate. It's like assuming that someone who played college sports is a better athlete than someone who didn't. I may have been just as good as someone who went to a division 3 school but 5 years later they are expected to be better. That may not be the case but a majority of the time it would be.


I disagree. Performing better on an I.Q. test doesn't mean one is more intelligent, given that one's intelligence is frequently understood as his or her intellectual potential.


So then what metric would an average high school graduate outperform an average college graduate? I can't think of one that they would, but we have at least one(IQ) that is proven. I also could speculate on things such as math, history and others but I don't have hard data to back that up.


I'm not sure what your point is. I.Q. tests don't measure potential.

The average white person outperforms the average black person on I.Q. tests, as does the average wealthy person when compared to the average poor one.

Are we thus left to assume that whites are inherently more intelligent than blacks, or that rich people are inherently more intelligent than poor ones. Or do white and wealthy people enjoy certain social advantages that allow them to perform better than black and poor ones?

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Tall Midget wrote:
So one's realized intelligence is variable.


Unfortunately, the world is full of people with high amounts of unrealized intelligence. :lol:

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IQ tests and their ilk are supposed (stress supposed) to measure aptitude, not what is already learned. However there are many problems, as TM already mentioned many are biased against ethnic/racial groups, low SES and females. There are tests that try to correct this. There is also a problem of validity for tests that are used too often. Psychologists try to stress the difference between IQ and different types of intelligence (the multiple intelligences theory or G and S factors of intelligence).

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Hey - I haven't been able to get to the board today - I was at my monthly MENSA meeting. What did I miss?

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Psycory wrote:
IQ tests and their ilk are supposed (stress supposed) to measure aptitude, not what is already learned. However there are many problems, as TM already mentioned many are biased against ethnic/racial groups


If Jerome has four watermelons, and Tyrone has two racks of ribs, but gives one to Keisha, he has one rack of ribs left. But Keisha also has taken one watermelon from Jerome, and has three orange drinks in front of her. Keisha has also offered one of her orange drinks to her grand momma, who is fixing to go to the Jewels. If Tyrone takes one of her orange drinks, whom does Jerome have to take from in order to have two orange drinks?


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W_Z wrote:
Psycory wrote:
IQ tests and their ilk are supposed (stress supposed) to measure aptitude, not what is already learned. However there are many problems, as TM already mentioned many are biased against ethnic/racial groups


If Jerome has four watermelons, and Tyrone has two racks of ribs, but gives one to Keisha, he has one rack of ribs left. But Keisha also has taken one watermelon from Jerome, and has three orange drinks in front of her. Keisha has also offered one of her orange drinks to her grand momma, who is fixing to go to the Jewels. If Tyrone takes one of her orange drinks, whom does Jerome have to take from in order to have two orange drinks?

Mmmm.... Orange drink. Good stuff. :)

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The farther I've gotten from "higher education" years ago and the further I've broadened my perspective on real people, wealth, knowledge, etc., the less I tend to judge much less notice anyone's education.


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W_Z wrote:
Psycory wrote:
IQ tests and their ilk are supposed (stress supposed) to measure aptitude, not what is already learned. However there are many problems, as TM already mentioned many are biased against ethnic/racial groups


If Jerome has four watermelons, and Tyrone has two racks of ribs, but gives one to Keisha, he has one rack of ribs left. But Keisha also has taken one watermelon from Jerome, and has three orange drinks in front of her. Keisha has also offered one of her orange drinks to her grand momma, who is fixing to go to the Jewels. If Tyrone takes one of her orange drinks, whom does Jerome have to take from in order to have two orange drinks?


How much for 1 rib?

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W_Z wrote:
Psycory wrote:
IQ tests and their ilk are supposed (stress supposed) to measure aptitude, not what is already learned. However there are many problems, as TM already mentioned many are biased against ethnic/racial groups


If Jerome has four watermelons, and Tyrone has two racks of ribs, but gives one to Keisha, he has one rack of ribs left. But Keisha also has taken one watermelon from Jerome, and has three orange drinks in front of her. Keisha has also offered one of her orange drinks to her grand momma, who is fixing to go to the Jewels. If Tyrone takes one of her orange drinks, whom does Jerome have to take from in order to have two orange drinks?


:lol: :lol: Solid Zach.

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Killer V wrote:
W_Z wrote:
Psycory wrote:
IQ tests and their ilk are supposed (stress supposed) to measure aptitude, not what is already learned. However there are many problems, as TM already mentioned many are biased against ethnic/racial groups


If Jerome has four watermelons, and Tyrone has two racks of ribs, but gives one to Keisha, he has one rack of ribs left. But Keisha also has taken one watermelon from Jerome, and has three orange drinks in front of her. Keisha has also offered one of her orange drinks to her grand momma, who is fixing to go to the Jewels. If Tyrone takes one of her orange drinks, whom does Jerome have to take from in order to have two orange drinks?


How much for 1 rib?


Homey - we don't sell just one rib!


(Got change for a $100?)

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Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I know IQ is not a perfect metric, but here are some sites that answer the question of who has a higher IQ, high school or college graduates.

http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm
Mean of college graduates, 115
Mean of high school graduates, 105

http://www.2h.com/iq-results-factors.html
Quote:
The educational correlation for IQ test results continues into adulthood, with college graduates typically scoring higher than non college graduates.


Now I already know the response, that IQ does not accurately gauge intelligence. That is a fair criticism and I agree with that. I would however like to know what criteria you would use to gauge intelligence.


But the problem is that going to college increases your IQ, given that it varies over time depending on your social and physical environment. So college graduates may be realizing their potential to a greater extent than non-graduates, but they are not genetically superior to non-graduates in the amount of potential they possess.


Which is exactly why, in response to the original question by FavreFan, that you would assume that a college graduate was smarter than a high school graduate. It's like assuming that someone who played college sports is a better athlete than someone who didn't. I may have been just as good as someone who went to a division 3 school but 5 years later they are expected to be better. That may not be the case but a majority of the time it would be.


I disagree. Performing better on an I.Q. test doesn't mean one is more intelligent, given that one's intelligence is frequently understood as his or her intellectual potential.


So then what metric would an average high school graduate outperform an average college graduate? I can't think of one that they would, but we have at least one(IQ) that is proven. I also could speculate on things such as math, history and others but I don't have hard data to back that up.


I'm not sure what your point is. I.Q. tests don't measure potential.

The average white person outperforms the average black person on I.Q. tests, as does the average wealthy person when compared to the average poor one.

Are we thus left to assume that whites are inherently more intelligent than blacks, or that rich people are inherently more intelligent than poor ones. Or do white and wealthy people enjoy certain social advantages that allow them to perform better than black and poor ones?


I guess I put more stock in what someone is rather than what they could have done. I am certainly not saying that any race is superior to any. I am just saying that on average a college educated person will score better on just about any type of intelligence test you can come up with. I guess I am talking about where they are now and you are talking about what they could have been. The discussion of the economic or educational divide doesn't have much bearing on this. I am not trying to prove that whites are superior to blacks or any other race and I don't really see the point of bringing it up. That's why I wanted you to give me a test that measures intelligence that would be in favor of high school graduates.

I don't get why race was brought into this discussion in the first place. It's about college graduates vs. high school graduates and the likelihood that a college graduate will be smarter than a high school graduate until proven otherwise.

I think some people think intelligence is what you could have been. I think it is what you are right now as I fully acknowledge that I did not reach my full potential.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:13 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I know IQ is not a perfect metric, but here are some sites that answer the question of who has a higher IQ, high school or college graduates.

http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm
Mean of college graduates, 115
Mean of high school graduates, 105

http://www.2h.com/iq-results-factors.html
Quote:
The educational correlation for IQ test results continues into adulthood, with college graduates typically scoring higher than non college graduates.


Now I already know the response, that IQ does not accurately gauge intelligence. That is a fair criticism and I agree with that. I would however like to know what criteria you would use to gauge intelligence.


But the problem is that going to college increases your IQ, given that it varies over time depending on your social and physical environment. So college graduates may be realizing their potential to a greater extent than non-graduates, but they are not genetically superior to non-graduates in the amount of potential they possess.


Which is exactly why, in response to the original question by FavreFan, that you would assume that a college graduate was smarter than a high school graduate. It's like assuming that someone who played college sports is a better athlete than someone who didn't. I may have been just as good as someone who went to a division 3 school but 5 years later they are expected to be better. That may not be the case but a majority of the time it would be.


I disagree. Performing better on an I.Q. test doesn't mean one is more intelligent, given that one's intelligence is frequently understood as his or her intellectual potential.


So then what metric would an average high school graduate outperform an average college graduate? I can't think of one that they would, but we have at least one(IQ) that is proven. I also could speculate on things such as math, history and others but I don't have hard data to back that up.


I'm not sure what your point is. I.Q. tests don't measure potential.

The average white person outperforms the average black person on I.Q. tests, as does the average wealthy person when compared to the average poor one.

Are we thus left to assume that whites are inherently more intelligent than blacks, or that rich people are inherently more intelligent than poor ones. Or do white and wealthy people enjoy certain social advantages that allow them to perform better than black and poor ones?


I guess I put more stock in what someone is rather than what they could have done. I am certainly not saying that any race is superior to any. I am just saying that on average a college educated person will score better on just about any type of intelligence test you can come up with. I guess I am talking about where they are now and you are talking about what they could have been. The discussion of the economic or educational divide doesn't have much bearing on this. I am not trying to prove that whites are superior to blacks or any other race and I don't really see the point of bringing it up. That's why I wanted you to give me a test that measures intelligence that would be in favor of high school graduates.

I don't get why race was brought into this discussion in the first place. It's about college graduates vs. high school graduates and the likelihood that a college graduate will be smarter than a high school graduate until proven otherwise.

I think some people think intelligence is what you could have been. I think it is what you are right now as I fully acknowledge that I did not reach my full potential.


Race and class are important to the discussion because they have a significant bearing on who goes to college and who doesn't. Being a college graduate is a form of social status and thus has a social context that is inextricably linked to racial and class identity.

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Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


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Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.

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spanky wrote:
Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.


What he said.

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spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.


What he said.

I'm in 100% agreement.

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spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.


What he said.


Uneeded copying is wrong!!!

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spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.


What he said.


Uneeded copying is wrong!!!

Indeed.

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Kid Cairo wrote:
spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.


What he said.


Uneeded copying is wrong!!!

Indeed.

Hey Guys! What are you talking about?

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Darkside wrote:
Kid Cairo wrote:
spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
spanky wrote:
Coast2Coast wrote:
Is it really necessary to copy a long series of quotes to respond to something? A suggestion: just pick out the exact sentence, graph or post you are responding to, not the entire chain. This thread has more copied quotes than a Sam Smith column. :lol:


Exactly.


What he said.


Uneeded copying is wrong!!!

Indeed.

Hey Guys! What are you talking about?


Unecessary copying. We hate it. Anything you want to add?

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Tall Midget wrote:
Race and class are important to the discussion because they have a significant bearing on who goes to college and who doesn't. Being a college graduate is a form of social status and thus has a social context that is inextricably linked to racial and class identity.


To clarify: Claims about the intelligence of college graduates vs. the intelligence of non-grads are also (to some degree, at least) implicitly claims about the intelligence of white and wealthy people vs. black and poor people.

I would also point out that a much larger percentage of American women graduate from college today as opposed to forty years ago. Does that mean women have become more innately intelligent over the past forty years? Or have the social conditions affecting the higher education of women changed? Similarly, the percentage of African-Americans graduating from college was significantly higher in 1975 than it was in 1960, but is now lower than it was in 1975. Are we to assume that black people are somehow smarter today than in 1960, but not as smart as they were in 1975? Or again, are there larger social forces that determine these trends? Finally, if one's educational level is thus heavily determined by social opportunity, do disparities in IQ between college grads and non-grads really reflect a disparity in native intelligence, or a disparity in social opportunity? I think it's clear that the latter is closer to the truth than the former.

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Tall Midget wrote:
To clarify: Claims about the intelligence of college graduates vs. the intelligence of non-grads are also (to some degree, at least) implicitly claims about the intelligence of white and wealthy people vs. black and poor people.

I would also point out that a much larger percentage of American women graduate from college today as opposed to forty years ago. Does that mean women have become more innately intelligent over the past forty years? Or have the social conditions affecting the higher education of women changed? Similarly, the percentage of African-Americans graduating from college was significantly higher in 1975 than it was in 1960, but is now lower than it was in 1975. Are we to assume that black people are somehow smarter today than in 1960, but not as smart as they were in 1975? Or again, are there larger social forces that determine these trends? Finally, if one's educational level is thus heavily determined by social opportunity, do disparities in IQ between college grads and non-grads really reflect a disparity in native intelligence, or a disparity in social opportunity? I think it's clear that the latter is closer to the truth than the former.

I don't understand what you are arguing. No one is saying that any race or group is intellectually superior. I will acknowledge that many women and minorities were unable to meet their intellectual potential in the 60's and there still is a divide based off of racial and economic lines when it comes to post-high school studies. I'm not sure why you keep on bringing this up. That is fairly obvious. No one is saying that rich white people are smarter by some genetic factor. I'm not even saying white people are smarter.

Let's take out the racial and gender part of the equation.
A white male who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a white male who only graduates from high school. A white female who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a white female who only graduates from high school. A black male who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a black male who only graduates from high school. A black female who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a black female who only graduates from high school.

I am making that claim based off of one factor only. They have continued their studies for 4-5 years longer than the other person. There are exceptions to the rule all the time. This is why I keep on going back to the analogy of a college athlete. The college athlete was on par with his peers after graduating high school. He, however, will improve his physical ability at a greater pace than his peers who did not play college sports. There will be people that find other ways to improve and some will improve more than him but over the next 4-5 years he will improve better than most others he was at one point equal to.

It has nothing to do with race, or gender, or anything. It is about someone taking 4-5 years to learn. The same argument could be made that a high school graduate is smarter than someone who drops out of school and does not get their GED.

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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
To clarify: Claims about the intelligence of college graduates vs. the intelligence of non-grads are also (to some degree, at least) implicitly claims about the intelligence of white and wealthy people vs. black and poor people.

I would also point out that a much larger percentage of American women graduate from college today as opposed to forty years ago. Does that mean women have become more innately intelligent over the past forty years? Or have the social conditions affecting the higher education of women changed? Similarly, the percentage of African-Americans graduating from college was significantly higher in 1975 than it was in 1960, but is now lower than it was in 1975. Are we to assume that black people are somehow smarter today than in 1960, but not as smart as they were in 1975? Or again, are there larger social forces that determine these trends? Finally, if one's educational level is thus heavily determined by social opportunity, do disparities in IQ between college grads and non-grads really reflect a disparity in native intelligence, or a disparity in social opportunity? I think it's clear that the latter is closer to the truth than the former.

I don't understand what you are arguing. No one is saying that any race or group is intellectually superior. I will acknowledge that many women and minorities were unable to meet their intellectual potential in the 60's and there still is a divide based off of racial and economic lines when it comes to post-high school studies. I'm not sure why you keep on bringing this up. That is fairly obvious. No one is saying that rich white people are smarter by some genetic factor. I'm not even saying white people are smarter.

Let's take out the racial and gender part of the equation.
A white male who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a white male who only graduates from high school. A white female who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a white female who only graduates from high school. A black male who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a black male who only graduates from high school. A black female who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a black female who only graduates from high school.

I am making that claim based off of one factor only. They have continued their studies for 4-5 years longer than the other person. There are exceptions to the rule all the time. This is why I keep on going back to the analogy of a college athlete. The college athlete was on par with his peers after graduating high school. He, however, will improve his physical ability at a greater pace than his peers who did not play college sports. There will be people that find other ways to improve and some will improve more than him but over the next 4-5 years he will improve better than most others he was at one point equal to.

It has nothing to do with race, or gender, or anything. It is about someone taking 4-5 years to learn. The same argument could be made that a high school graduate is smarter than someone who drops out of school and does not get their GED.


Well sure, an average person who reads and studies will be smarter than an average person who doesn't read or study. But in our society, one can't separate one's educational level from his class and/or racial identity. The abstract comparison you attempt to make is thus invidious because of the social hierarchy in which we live.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:44 pm 
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The Revenge Of Mao wrote:
Has anything been proved in this long-winded, empty-headed argument amongst pawns on a chess board? We're all just figments of Bigfan's imagination.


I like you better as NSJ.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:46 pm 
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The Revenge Of Mao wrote:
Has anything been proved in this long-winded, empty-headed argument amongst pawns on a chess board? We're all just figments of Bigfan's imagination.

Yes, Mao. It has been proven that people have a large variety of excuses why they should not live up to their human potential. It shows us that some of those who consider themselves to be intellectually superior are college dropouts who figure they were too smart for their schools. It proves that many use social norms and cultural bias and their effect on the success of schooling to hide the fact that they are indeed quite racist in their expectations of certain cultural groups.
That is about it. Mao, come over for coffee.
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I liked you better as the Teflon Svengali of Change.


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NSJ wrote:
I liked you better as the Teflon Svengali of Change.


I liked you better as Drunk Driving with Stu-Gotz.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:37 pm 
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Tall Midget wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
To clarify: Claims about the intelligence of college graduates vs. the intelligence of non-grads are also (to some degree, at least) implicitly claims about the intelligence of white and wealthy people vs. black and poor people.

I would also point out that a much larger percentage of American women graduate from college today as opposed to forty years ago. Does that mean women have become more innately intelligent over the past forty years? Or have the social conditions affecting the higher education of women changed? Similarly, the percentage of African-Americans graduating from college was significantly higher in 1975 than it was in 1960, but is now lower than it was in 1975. Are we to assume that black people are somehow smarter today than in 1960, but not as smart as they were in 1975? Or again, are there larger social forces that determine these trends? Finally, if one's educational level is thus heavily determined by social opportunity, do disparities in IQ between college grads and non-grads really reflect a disparity in native intelligence, or a disparity in social opportunity? I think it's clear that the latter is closer to the truth than the former.

I don't understand what you are arguing. No one is saying that any race or group is intellectually superior. I will acknowledge that many women and minorities were unable to meet their intellectual potential in the 60's and there still is a divide based off of racial and economic lines when it comes to post-high school studies. I'm not sure why you keep on bringing this up. That is fairly obvious. No one is saying that rich white people are smarter by some genetic factor. I'm not even saying white people are smarter.

Let's take out the racial and gender part of the equation.
A white male who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a white male who only graduates from high school. A white female who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a white female who only graduates from high school. A black male who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a black male who only graduates from high school. A black female who graduates from college will on average be smarter than a black female who only graduates from high school.

I am making that claim based off of one factor only. They have continued their studies for 4-5 years longer than the other person. There are exceptions to the rule all the time. This is why I keep on going back to the analogy of a college athlete. The college athlete was on par with his peers after graduating high school. He, however, will improve his physical ability at a greater pace than his peers who did not play college sports. There will be people that find other ways to improve and some will improve more than him but over the next 4-5 years he will improve better than most others he was at one point equal to.

It has nothing to do with race, or gender, or anything. It is about someone taking 4-5 years to learn. The same argument could be made that a high school graduate is smarter than someone who drops out of school and does not get their GED.


Well sure, an average person who reads and studies will be smarter than an average person who doesn't read or study. But in our society, one can't separate one's educational level from his class and/or racial identity. The abstract comparison you attempt to make is thus invidious because of the social hierarchy in which we live.


Hm?


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