Maybe. They don't have anyone with leadership skills. Weber tried to make McCamey that, since he is the guy with the ball, but it just hasn't worked. Tisdale is not that type either. Weber tries to fill the void from the sidelines but it needs to happen on the court.

They often sit on moderate leads too early and shut down the offense down the stretch when they should be pushing the ball more. I suspect that sits with Weber although it is possible that the players just aren't trying to execute with the same energy.

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You know me like that.

I think "leadership" is one of the most overrated concepts in sports.

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Watch an Illinois game and get back to me.

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You know me like that.

You're a big fire and passion guy, eh?

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I think leadership is important in college hoops, especially considering the disparity in experience and maturity of players in the college game. I'm speaking mainly of leadership as it relates to discipline.

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You know me like that.

I'm not sure what you mean by discipline. Are you referencing it as it relates to performance issues, like having the discipline to stay within the framework of an offensive or defensive scheme?

Or are you arguing that strong team leaders are needed to monitor and guide their teammates' behavior off the court?

Or are you talking about something else entirely?

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Getting the team into its sets. Making sure young guys know what they should have done when they go to the wrong spot or take the wrong shot or don't switch properly on defense. Picking up the energy as needed on a team that tends to get the glazed-over look in their eyes at times like Illinois does.

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You know me like that.

So are you saying that the Illini frequently look confused and apathetic on the court?

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More apathetic than confused. Richmond is the main one out there who I see confused but he helps makes up for it by being very active.

And before you say that's all on Weber. I'll say it's mostly on Weber but it doesn't help that the players don't have the mental and physical toughness to overcome their own apathy at times, and often critical times, in the game.

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You know me like that.

Nothing to see here. Northwestern sucks again. Proof again that a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. And you know what? It's only going to get worse next year... because there is virtually no one who can provide meaningful interior defense. The painful legacy that is NU B-ball continues.

If Weber were the coach of the Bears Doc would have been calling for his head 3 years ago.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

It's interesting that Noisy blames the players for their apathy and confusion given that Weber recruited those players. I believe Noisy considers the last two recruiting classes to have been stellar. A few years ago he argued that Weber was a great coach with a bad recruiting plan. Now he is a great coach who is starting to recruit well, but his players have somehow mysteriously disappointed him. Bruce Weber is not the solution to Illini Nation's problem. Bruce Weber is Illini Nation's problem.

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So you feel the players are blameless for their own performance. Got it.




Yes, and next year's too. Weber is on the record that he thought this group of seniors would develop more toughness on the court and that he now believes we'll never see that. I believe the team will continue to improve over the next 2 years as the improved talent pool continues to cycle through.

So, we disagree on Bruce Weber. Noted.

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You know me like that.

Doc, what would have to happen for you to be ready to can Weber?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Be bad next year. They need to be a top 15-20 team next year, minimum.

However, that won't get him fired.

They'll let him stay through Paul & Richardson's senior year barring a complete sub-.500 season along the way.

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You know me like that.

what? weber has his own recruits this year and the last 4 years prior...he is just not a great coach or recruiter..need a black guy who can recruit the chicago public league

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I think Jerrance Howard is still black.

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You know me like that.

I am pretty sure I asked you the same thing last year, and your answer was similiar. But I cannot find the thread. It just seems that your answer is always "if they are bad next year" and when next year gets here you do not change your tune.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

yeah u are correct...but he is an assistant..not the head coach...

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I expected the team to perform better this year, for sure. I'm not a fly-off-the-handle fan of guys. Weber has been better than average on the whole in his tenure at Illinois. Better than Lou and Lou was here 20+ years. As an Illinois fan, I'm not used to a lot of change.

So, based on his past success, he gets a couple years from me before he's out in my book. Next year is "win or get out" to me. This season is not over yet either. They have the ability to still put something together. So, no, I'm not ready to fire the guy right now.

You keep bringing up Lovie like I've been after the Bears to fire the guy for years. I'm on record in the "Ditka, Meatball" thread as not wanting him fired until after last year. I gave him 3 years of mediocrity before wanting him out. So, it's not like my stance is really all that different.

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You know me like that.

But hasn't the Illini had at least 3 years of mediocrity already?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

And even when Lovie has success you are not willing to change your opinion. If Weber got the Illini to the elite 8 this year you would be ready to give him a lifetime extension, so yes your stance on the 2 guys is very different.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Not really. They were a 24-win team and 2nd in the Big Ten 2 years ago.

The Bruce Weber Era, as it stands now, breaks down into 3 segments.

The Bill Self players period - where he got those guys to buy into his system and won a signficant number of games with them.

The Jamar Smith / bad recruiting period - where they lost 2 out of 3 recruiting classes to being bad, sick, or drunk...Stan Simpson, Richard Semrau, Smith/Carlwell. During which time, he still pulled out 3 20-win seasons and 2 NCAA appearances in 4 years.

The Top Recruit period starting this year - coming up on a third consecutive top recruiting class next year, this was the year that they are supposed to put it together and they've been inconsistent at best.

Looked pretty good last night, though, eh? Bruce, benching his guys, coaching them up. How 'bout that Midgy?



Well, that's just wrong. I gave Lovie credit this year. Hell, I think I even started a Shoutout thread or Apology saying as much. I didn't jump on board in Week 6 or whatever it was but by the end of the year I was willing to give him credit. I still don't like his style of defense very much but I can't deny he had success this year.

However, your insistence that I apply the exact same criteria to judging an NFL football coach and the head of a college basketball program is ridiculous. Did Lovie Smith lose 60% of his starting line-up the year after the Super Bowl? Of course not, still, he proceeded to spend the next 3 years under .500 and missing the playoffs.

Weber lost most of his team after the NCAA Finals and still came back and won 26 games. Even so, college programs need much more time to develop and improve than an NFL team that can draft and sign free agents. Illinois has been waiting on Jereme Richmond for 5 years. Even when "big-time" recruits arrive, they still typically need a year or two to develop physically to compete in the Big Ten.

Also, I think it's odd that you believe I should insist on Bruce Weber's firing due to my stance on Lovie Smith even though it was proven, I guess, that I was too quick to want Lovie Smith fired.

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You know me like that.

I have never said I believe you should want Weber fired. I have just always been amazed at how you treat 2 of your favorite teams completely different. You are willing to give Weber the benefit of the doubt time and time again (next year, next year, next year), yet you are very reluctant to ever do the same for Lovie. If one thing good happens for the Illini in football or basketball you are a glass is 3/4 full guy who pushes aside anything negative that might happen. For the Bears you are the exact opposite. If anything negative happens to the Bears you jump on that and the sky is falling and you ignore anything positive that is going on. It is quite the interesting dichotomy.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I watched the Bears for 3 years be mediocre and miss the playoffs and never once said Lovie should be fired. Was I critical, Jerry Angelo? Sure. They were often bad.

After 3 years and before Peppers, with an outlook that seemed bleak, I thought they should make a change. Through most of the first half of the year, I still held that the team wasn't very good and lacked direction.

Here are my changed thoughts on Lovie and the Bears this year.





I'm not sure what you want from me regarding Lovie. Should I find his home and lick his feet or tattoo "I LOVIE LOVIE" on my forehead?

As for Illinois, I've been critical of them all year. I was pissed after losing to UIC and believe that I even posted that I hope they'd lose to Missouri to wake them up (which didn't work). IN THIS VERY THREAD, I've said they've lacked motivation, confidence, effort this year AND WEBER IS TO BLAME.

I really don't know where to go with this.

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You know me like that.

There isn't anything I want you to do regarding this, well if you could get the Lovie Tattoo that would be pretty cool. Post pictures tho.

You will continue to be inconsistent in how you treat these 2 teams, and I will continue to point it out at times. For some reason it seems to bother you when I do, and that is fine. You remain one of my favorite posters here and I think that is why the inconsistency stands out so much to me. If it were JORR or Harry Suckwad I wouldn't care, but this is you Doc, and I hold you to a higher level around here. I expect more from greatness.

One thing we can agree on, it is time to go RACING!!!!!!

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Well, I hate you now. Let's be clear about that.

It only bothers me that I feel you've failed completely in demonstrating any inconsistencies. So, as long as we agree about that, we'll move on.

If you really wanted to win the argument, you should have brought up my love of Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - the greatest driver in NASCAR today.

This is his year.

Or possibly next year.

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You know me like that.

See I can't do that Doc because I am a mark for Junior as well! It IS his year this year!

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

No, I don't think the players are blameless. But if you recruit a bunch of pussies, you shouldn't be surprised when they play like pussies. Toughness, tenacity, and "court sense" are all qualities that can be spotted early in a player's career, just like pure physical ability. If you don't emphasize those qualities in your recruiting strategy, you're not going to get them. Weber has decided to recruit a physically gifted but phlegmatic group of players. That's his fault. And it's also his fault that he can't coach them that well.

And when did Lou Henson and the 20-win season become Illini Nation's standard for success? I've been listening to Illini fans tell me for the past 15 years or more that their program is a sleeping giant destined to dominate the college ranks like few others. If you truly believe your program has elite potential, settling for 20 wins per season in what has recently been an anomalously weak conference or matching a coach whose teams had a history of poor tournament performances isn't good enough--or at least it shouldn't be. Shortly after Weber led Self's players to the championship game, an Illini Nation boldly predicted years of continuing dominance. Now, apparently, all that can be predicted is continuing second- or third-tier status in the basketball world. My how the mighty have fallen.

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I assumed you actually meant that you thought Lou Henson was a better coach, hence, the Lou Henson comparison. Perhaps you were joking.

Who is predicting continued 2nd or 3rd tier status? I believe I said they should be top 15 next year or Weber should be fired - and that's with a team that will have exactly zero Seniors. There is a fast growing contingent of Illini fans who want him fired today, well maybe not today, but yesterday.

As far as recruiting goes, Weber admitted to recruiting mistakes and corrected them. This year's Senior class is the last remnants of the bad recruiting era. He has targeted more mentally tough players like Richmond, Leonard, and Abrams.

Your hatred of Bruce Weber is truly awesome.

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You know me like that.