Top-15 is top-tier to you? OK, I guess we disagree. There's a big difference to me between a top-15 team and a top-5 or top-10 team. But in any event, I thought this year was supposed to be the top-15 year. Isn't next year the year that the Illini are bound for glory?

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Illinois is still a tough team to beat. They have had some crap games but if they are
seeded anywhere between 7-10 in the tournament ( assuming they make it ), they
are gonna have as good a chance as anyone making some noise. A lot of people don't
respect Big 10 hoops but every year there are a handful of teams from the conference
in the Sweet 16. Right now I am going to predict Wisky knocking off OSU at the Kohl
Center. OSU, Purdue, Wisconsin, Minny, Illinois and Michigan State are all decent
teams. Indiana and Penn State are improving. I wouldn't get rid of Weber just yet
but I like how he tried to act like a bad ass and bench some of the starters the other
night.

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Flew too close to the sun on wings of pastrami

I actually felt that they would be better this year than next year. McCamey is one of the best players in the country and you're replacing him next year with a Freshman in Abrams.

The best players on next year's team are going to be Sophomores and Freshmen, unless Paul makes some big improvements on rounding out his game and Richardson shakes out of whatever funk he's gotten himself into this year.

I think there's a big difference between top 2 or 3 and top 15. I don't think there's much difference between 5 and 15. The top programs have huge talent, Duke, OSU, etc. But, if you are getting a 3 or 4 seed annually in the tourney, sometimes better, that is acceptable to me. That gets you a legit shot at the Final Four and then you see what happens.

I don't know what Illinois fans you have been talking to for the past 15 years but you need to get smarter friends. No Illinois fan I know thinks we're going to turn into Duke. I think we should be Michigan State though.

This was supposed to be the year for Illini fan's patience being rewarded. It hasn't been and people are calling for Weber's job. I would imagine you'd be very pleased.

But, the year's not over. He figured out how to coach them last night - toughest performance of the year. Look out, but the ineffective Coach Weber might have actually taught them something. The horror!!

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You know me like that.

Illinois will never be the desination UNC or Duke will be to top tier guys but if
we continue to get some good Chicago talent and pull in some JC guys and
other people from around the country they'll be fine. The next 4 weeks will
really show what the program is made of due to the schedule and whether or
not these guys are gelling. I blame part of this on Weber but mostly on the
weak upperclassmen they have on this squad. Paul has been a minor disappointment
but Richmond has grown significantly this year and I see a good future as long
as they continue to recruit. McCamey has been disappointing as well, he looks
like he is second guessing his shot to go to the NBA. He is not a leader and is
looking forward to his days playing off the bench in the NBA.

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Flew too close to the sun on wings of pastrami

You think Illinois should be Michigan State? Hasn't Izzo taken MSU to like 6 Final Four appearances in the past 10 or 11 years while winning 1 National Championship? So basically you are saying the Illini should be going to the Final Four every other year? Those expectations don't seem consistent with your earlier statements about your hopes for Weber and are especially confusing when one considers that Duke has made the Final Four only 3 times in the past decade, although they have won 2 titles. So when you say you don't expect the Illini to be another Duke, but you do expect them to replicate Michigan State's success, it sounds like you are making a distinction without a difference--that is, unless you are saying that Michigan State has had more success than Duke (an arguable point) and that is what you expect from the Illini.

In either case, Weber is far from duplicating the feats of Izzo or Coach K and is unlikely to do so in the future. But in saying you expect the Illini to expect Weber to ascend to the same plateau as Izzo in the near future, you sound a lot like my friends--you know, the same Illini fans you have derided as needing to get smarter about basketball.

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MSU as in having success without having 6 McDonald's All-Americans on the bench.

I think 2 Final Fours a decade is doable. MSU's tourney success has come without really ever being considered an "elite" team.

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You know me like that.

bottom line is lovie is an average coach...he should of never been hired..angelo either... lovie and angelo draft the players together... never apologize for doubting smith and angelo, they have won nothing , and have had plenty of time to showcase their knowledge and vision..or lack there of, i should say...weber is an average coach..maybe below average ... weber had his most success with self's recruiting class...weber recruits the talent and coaches it. Chicago is maybe top hs basketball talent in the country..what has weber done? under achieved in my opinion, with the talent 2 hours north.

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does that loss to purdue change your mind? weber should be replaced. by a black guy with chicago ties ..but if they let zook stay around this long, weber is goin nowhere

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And that's really the whole point.

One other thing about the Bill Self era too, that I think gets forgotten - The "great" Bill Self talent that Weber won with wasn't really considered so great until he won with them.

Williams was not the college player he ended up becoming in the pros. He was a PG that played good defense but didn't look for his shot or shoot particularly well.

Brown was a 6-foot shooting guard who couldn't shoot. Augustine was soft on D inside. Powell was a 6'6" power forward that weighed 210 pounds and overachieved. They had a cadre of tall skinny guys to foul people down low.

The whole rotation ran about 5 deep as Rich McBride was another sharpshooter that couldn't ever remember how to shoot. I believe it was because he was actually 47 years old.

The speculation that whole year was that Illinois might not have a single guy that would start in the pros. In fact, the whole storyline of that UNC game was that Illinois had no pros and UNC had like 7 NBA first-rounders and that the talent disparity was too large for Illinois to overcome.

I love that team but it wasn't uber-talented. They just ran that offense beautifully, got open shots, and were very active defensively at knocking the ball loose. They were still the greatest passing team I think I've ever seen in college and I attribute much of that to coaching.

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You know me like that.

Why would the Purdue loss change his mind? Is there any shame in losing to a ranked team with an All-American on it?

Bruce Weber is a very good coach. Any hire made by the Illini would be a downgrade. I don't know why, but his players seem to under perform as their careers go on since the national title game team. From McCamey to Shaun Pruitt he's been let down a lot by upperclassmen. That's the tough thing to put your finger on. It should be interesting to see if things change with the insane talent he has brought in the past few years and is coming in the next few years.

He needs to stay away completely from Chicago. That's not a winning proposition unless you are willing to pay big bucks for the few talents that come out of there that are worth the trouble. How many of the top teams in college basketball feature talent from the city of Chicago? It's not much.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

how do u know if the next coach would be a downgrade? weber is maybe 4th best coach in the conference maybe 5th that is not good enough ..maybe 4 u mediocre is all good .. i disagree and think a change would improve team.

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Well, the Big Ten is stacked with good coaches.

Give me a name or two of people who would leave the current program they are in and are clearly better than Weber. There aren't many out there.

You can also name the minority candidate that you feel would be better than him.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

so u are saying julian wright and derek rose would probally not have improved the team, sean dockery or sheron collins either eh? bobby frazier? i would have hired lavin. if it were my decision ron guenther be canned first..then zook..then weber 3 phone calls in 3 minutes... when was the last time illinois finished season in the top 25?

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Of course they would, but you have to get really dirty to get players like that. It's just the way it is. There are a few gems in Chicago but most of the time it's not worth it to go after them. They also aren't likely to beat out Kansas or North Carolina for the true elite talents coming out of Chicago. It's not worth the effort.
Weber is a better coach than Lavin. Lavin couldn't win at UCLA. Anyone should be able to win at UCLA.

What he is doing at St. Johns is pretty good but they are still comparable to Illinois this year. I don't see what makes Lavin an upgrade. If anything, they are comparable coaches who would both have equal chances of success. He's also not available this year. I'd still like to know which coach Illinois could realistically get if the fired Weber in March. I don't know who it would be.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

i would give chris collins a 5 year deal worth 10 million dollars...and he would accept

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10 million dollars for a guy from the great Duke coaching tree? Good luck.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

hmmm are u related to bruce weber? u never answered .when was the last time illinois finished in top 25?

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Yeah, Illinois doesn't need any more trouble like that. It took them almost a decade to come back from bogus Deon Thomas allegations. I'm OK with Illinois not getting Rose because they didn't want to pay Reggie or accept a kid that didn't even take his own entrance exams or figure out if his transcripts were altered.

You can keep Chris Collins - let some other program figure out if he can coach.

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You know me like that.

watch lavin have his team a top program in country in under 3 years..

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I believe 2 years ago. I don't usually review the post-NCAA rankings but I know they were top 20 late into February 2009.

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You know me like that.

and i think it naive not to believe that illinois athletes is much different than the rest of the country as far as paying players and looking the other way

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No, I'm just a blind Illinois homer.

His NCAA tournament resume after the title game leaves a lot to be desired. It will be interesting to see what happens this year if they make it because they have the talent to be a surprise team.

If it wasn't for recruiting, I'd think it was time for him to go. However, you'll see a different type of Illini team talent wise next year. The upswing in recruiting hasn't immediately lead to great success but if it's going to happen next year we should start to see it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The Chicago public league is notorious for that type of stuff though. That's the reason that most programs stay away. Go look at the rosters of Big Ten teams. Given the geographical proximity that is there the number is very low.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes. I would be surprised if Bruce Weber is paying players.

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You know me like that.

Here is another thing. Illinois is currently tied for fourth with Michigan State, who was projected to be a top 5 team.

Ohio State, who may be the best team in the country is ahead of them.
Purdue and Wisconsin, who both are really good teams are ahead of them.

They'll likely finish 9-9 or 10-8 in one of the best conferences in the country.

This isn't the debacle that was 07-08. It's Illinois being worse than 3 other teams in a really good conference.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It would be naive to think that absolutely no one on any team hasn't gotten something but he's certainly not anywhere close to someone like Calipari.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You seem to be arguing that because Illinois is worse than three good teams, they are good. This isn't the case. It doesn't matter that Michigan St. was projected to be an elite team since they haven't played like one for most of the year. After its top three teams, the conference is uninspiring.

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Well, next year will be interesting. As you said in another post, Weber has historically been "disappointed" by upperclassmen. To me, that's another way of saying Weber doesn't get his players to improve.

Earlier in this thread, Noisewater seemed to be arguing that the perceived disparity in talent between UNC and the U of I was evidence that Weber did a great job of coaching during the Final 4 season. But one could easily make the opposite case--that the perceived disparity was a misperception because Weber was hampering Deron Williams's progress, a reasonable conclusion given Williams's meteoric rise once he entered the NBA.

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Some of the mythology surrounding Weber makes me laugh. If he was "too honest" to get the top recruits in the past, how is it that he is getting them now? Maybe he wasn't too honest, just inept, something that has changed by bringing in a new recruiting coordinator.

I guarantee you that every team in the Big 10 cheats quite a bit. Some teams are just better at it than others while also having good coaches who can take advantage of the wanton dishonesty that permeates big-time college athletics.

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Agreed. Jerrance Howard has been a major improvement.



If only Weber could hamper Demetri McCamey's progress en route to a 37-win season and 5 points away from a National Championship.

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You know me like that.