It's over $34 today and will probably make all the losses back in the next few days/weeks.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's gonna be $50 in the next few days/weeks or do you mean only losses since IPO?

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I mean what happened yesterday.

It will take a few years before it's at $50. I hope the report isn't true that the government is looking to get out of it quickly even at a loss. As I said before, it doesn't have to be a straight 100% of the loan is repaid situation for it to be a good deal for the government. Taxes, improved economy, and other factors could make it a success at like $45 a share. Selling now would be a bad idea.

The economic damage of losing the American auto industry would have been significantly more than $50B but there was likely some other way that it could have been salvaged but with significantly more collateral damage.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It is much easier to scream about socialism, than it is to understand this statement.

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<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

Not necesserally the deal though. Some don't quite buy it that the entire auto industry fails if GM goes down.
And I don't think anyone (educated) was saying "socialism" as much as "government interference when unwarranted".
And I'm not defending this position, but trying to just show a valid viewpoint without the name calling and weirdness.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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I suppose my remark was directed to the "Jimmy Reardon crowd", like some of the people I see at the bowling alley. They scream about "Obama Motors" and "Government Motors".

I don't see what was so weird about my statement, and there certainly was no name calling.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

I apologize, I didn't mean your name calling and weirdness. I was referring to the crowd that "screams socialism" and uses the "Government Motors" and "Obama Motors".
I mean to say that I believe a valid viewpoint to the common claim that the entire American auto industry was in peril should GM fail would be skepticism that the whole industry was in trouble, without using stupid conversation ending words like "socialism, OM, Government Motors".

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Ironically, those are the kind of people that may ultimately cost the government billions of dollars in losses on the sale if the government sells too early.

I believe I said it at the start of the thread. Unless GM literally goes out of business this will be a good deal for the government. The tax revenue alone of keeping the second largest car maker(and likely biggest within 10 years) is probably worth $50 billion over the next 10 years.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Rick, I've been thinking about this sale price of $50. Does that take into account the interest accrued on the money the Government borrows to finance this deal?
What I mean is this... if the government sells today at $50, it breaks even, but if the price reaches $50 in 2 years, the government would not break even, because of the cost of servicing, right?
So how does the required break even price get adjusted as this continues on?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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That's a good question. I have a feeling it's what they estimate needs to happen to get a check equal to the check they wrote.

The thing in this case though is that the government doesn't make money off the sale. Tax revenue is significantly higher than it would have been if GM was gone for good or sold off for peanuts while foreign auto companies take market share. The unemployment ripple effect would lower tax revenue too. That is where the true "profit" of the government comes in. I don't have a good enough grasp of all the factors, but one could argue that losing a few billion dollars is still a great investment over the next 10 years as GM will likely pay much more than Toyota or Honda would have, including salaries to workers and suppliers workers.

That doesn't even factor what would have happened to the city of Detroit.

I wish someone would do a study on the economic benefit of GM existing in it's current strong form vs. a wounded bankrupt company or even completely gone.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If GM would have been dissolved than the very fragile global supply chain would have gone right along with it. Auto companies don't really produce a lot of the components in cars anymore and haven't for a while. From transmissions, to switch gear, stereo IP's, LCD screens, suspension, brakes, seats etc...very fragile, very susceptible to minor disruptions. Add in a GM collapse AND a Chrysler collapse and the economic situation would have fallen to much farther depths. I was opposed to the bailouts from a pure moral hazard/free market/punish bad decisions angle but if the whole supply chain fails....it would have been the truck running you over after the car crash that ejected you from through the windshield and threw you into a light pole. Bailing them out was probably cheaper than the alternative.

Average volume is around 16 million daily.

In case anyone needs to sell...Im pretty sure you can get it sold.

Just wait until the Treasury dumps their shares...

You are aware that Jews invented money.

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Its only worth 30.67 if people are willing to buy or sell it at that price


I dont see a lot of people wanting to buy or sell it there.

What?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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If I recall correctly, the gubmint needs to sell at somewhere around $50 to break even on the loans that were supposedly repaid.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Oh right.

My bad.

How could I think a stock of a major company like GM wouldnt trade at its quoted price?

Thats ridiculous. I mean have I even heard of the stock market?

Oh, ok. This is a bit that I'm not getting. Sorry.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Dang.

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"Cowabunga? Cowa fucking piece of dog shit! This game is diarrhea coming out of my dick!"

That's true. Hopefully the government is smart enough to stay away and let things play out. One concern is that this could be used against Obama in 2012 if they still own part of the company. If they sold today they would lose about $10-$11 billion.

The question becomes whether or not that was worth it to save the American auto industry. I'd still say that it was even though things haven't gone as well as I had thought they would.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This confuses me. I have like 35% of the total posts in this thread. Sorry I had a meeting and was gone for a few hours. Are you going insane?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

GM going under at that time would have been a catastrophe for all industries that utilize US manufacturing - impacting retail, appliance, construction, medical, and on and on.

GM may still go under but the hope would be that if it happens it is done in a gradual winding down of operations. It would still be fairly catastrophic but might not cause as many other manufacturers to shut their doors if they were able to plan carefully.

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Crystal ball much?

You're not going to be able to develop new industries in 12-24 months. If you think unemployment is high now, if they let GM fold, things would really be ugly.

In the long-run, it is not the optimal way to spend money but I don't think the American public was ready to learn the hard lessons of international competition. I still don't think so.

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Professional market analyst?

That means what, exactly?

It was estimated that GM failing, and then the failure of Chrysler, and then the failure of Ford, which would have happened, could have lost up to 3 million jobs. http://www.slate.com/id/2204582/

That means that at worst we paid $11 billion dollars to keep 3 million jobs.
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was about $750 billion dollars and is estimated to have saved about 3.5 million jobs.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It would have led to the failure of many automakers and all of the ancillary industries that exist in that arena.

That lesson is too tough. You would be decimating the entire US Manufacturing industry and then trying to rebuild it in one fell swoop.

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The auto industry is also incredibly unique. The barriers to entry are virtually insurmountable. That's why I am aware of no major car company that has been created since the 1970s. Even new brands introduced into the United States were from long established foreign companies.

This is while GM, Ford, and Chrysler were doing progressively worse and vulnerable to new competition. Don't you think that if GM was easily replaceable that someone would have done it if they could? The Big 3 never became the Big 4 because it's just not reality. The startup costs are too high for anyone to risk it.

Some people just seem to think that the market forces that drive a local supermarket going out of business and new ones opening to fill the need equals the multi-billion dollar investment to just produce one car at about 1% of the capacity as the nearest competition.

You lose GM, and then Chrysler you end up with an auto industry that went from #1 a few short years ago to barely competitive with some of the smaller foreign car companies. That can't be good for us. I guess some people just have to hold on to the kindergarten economic theory that "Losing $11 billion is never the best choice".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!