Ozzie has cost us games this year, just not this one. I really don't follow MLB except for the Sox and Cubs (Cubs just through flipping or when the Sox aren't against them). I used to follow MLB outside the Sox. Now I don't care or have time. So I don't know how many other managers have cost their teams more or less games than Ozzie. I suspect some are better and many more are worse.

Stop being ridiculous.

Blame the manager no matter what if it makes you feel better.

"Everything is that fucking Guillen's fault."

Keep it.

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You keep it. I've never said "everything is fucking Guillen's fault". He's a dumb guy. He does a lot of shit that doesn't make sense during ballgames. And he allowed Santos to blow this game tonight. It's fine if you don't think so. The philosophy of "the closer is the last man" is widely held. That doesn't make it correct. But I'm certainly not ridiculous for believing it's foolish.

He fucked this bullpen up from day one by making Thornton the closer. It hasn't really been right since. And I have no problem with the concept of Thornton being the closer if the move existed in a vacuum. But that caused everyone else to move around into unfamiliar roles. Instead of one guy making a switch, you had everybody changing roles.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No you're being ridiculous for saying I don't blame Ozzie for anything.

If you want to blame him for players not doing their job fine. I don't.

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The "closer as a last man" isn't widley held. That's where you're wrong. The "hot closer with a consistent track record" is widley held. As it should be. That's the point we're all trying to make. That was the situation tonight.

Oh, I was just fucking with you with the Cowley comment.


I'm not blaming him because Santos wasn't good. I'm blaming him because he sat there and watched him blow the game one base at a time. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Matsui had blasted a homerun after the walk to Willingham. In that case I'd say the closer blew the game. It happens.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Cool.
Still love your suit.

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I'm already on to more imporant things. Just saw Kelly Ripa on Letterman. When the hell did she stop being "hot"?

Of course it's widely held. Guys do or die with their closer. Santos isn't a "hot closer with a consistent track record". That's where you're wrong. He's a converted infielder with a small sample of appearances and 12 career saves. And I think he's a damn good pitcher. But he isn't on a hot streak. He was wild just a couple days ago too and blew a tie game.

As for Kelly Ripa, they all get old eventually, Beardown.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He's a consistent "reliever" with a track record. 1.33 seasons of "good" is enough for me. Pretty damn good in the 12 or 13 closing chances he had this year. That's a good enough track record for me to leave him in this game. You need more. I don't.

By the way, the loss tonight should be blamed more on our inability to hit their weak-ass starter than Santos - though Santos is not far behind - their starter was horrible and we should have gotten more runs.

I was at the game tonight.
Beckham's at-bat in the first with the bases loaded was both hilarious and crushing at the same time.
Seeing him have some pretty good at bats this week and then swing and miss 3 times in 4 pitches made me "haha ughh".

A caller on the post game show wanted to know why not bring in Thornton for the 9th inning.
Rongey said that you bring in Santos because if Ozzie would have brought in Thornton for the 9th and Thornton blew it, then Ozzie would be blamed for not bringing in Santos. I can't find the audio, but I'm 99% sure that's the reason for not bringing in Thornton according to Rongey: possible blame by the fans. Thornton's track record in the 9th (actually any appearance) this season is poor, so I don't mind bringing in Santos.

Rongey also said that it would be ridiculous to warm anyone up in the 'pen because if that's the case why not have someone warming up once the starter starts the game? Incase he isn't good that day.

I suppose Ozzie could have had someone warming after Matsui hit his single. Willingham turned an 0-2 count into a walk, because of Santos not being able to hit his slider. He just lost it and if he doesn't have that pitch, he's nothing.

Okay, I'm a lot calmer now than I was last night. I'll give you my philosophy on relief pitchers. I pretty much hate all of them. With very few exceptions they're guys that simply weren't good enough to cut it as starters. Usually it's due to a limited amount of pitches in their arsenals. The samples of their work- even over a couple seasons- is so small that it is difficult to know if they are any good at all. That's why guys like Scott Linebrink and Jamie Walker are coveted guys who get way overpaid one season and hated bums who might receive death threats from angry fans the next.

My thought is that if you bring a guy in a game and he is effective, let him go until he isn't. Everyone has bad days. The more times a manager changes pitchers, the more likely he's going to find a guy having a bad day. Thornton got two outs on two pitches. I wouldn't have minded seeing him start the ninth on a short leash (because of how shaky he has been this season). But I understand the fashion is to bring the closer into any save situation.



I didn't hear that myself since I was on this board railing away at Ozzie, but for all the condescension Rongey spews at Sox fans, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Is warming up a guy in the first inning with 27 outs to go really the same thing as getting a guy up a single out from victory with the guy on the mound obviously coming apart at the seams and the catcher continually looking at the dugout?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Fire Guillen today because your closer (who had been scored upon only twice since the start of spring training before last nite) blew the game. I guess if he brought Will Ohman in, and he blew it, you'd be saying fire Ozzie for that.


I've read (and posted) a lot, and I mean A LOT of stupid baseball thoughts on this board, but that might take the cake. Good job, Orr.

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There are plenty of other reasons to fire him, Frank. Last night was just brutal. You seem to be missing my point. I wasn't pissed because the closer blew the game. Nobody's perfect. They all blow games. It's the way it happened. It wasn't a walk and a homer. It was six straight batters he could not retire. He never did get the last out. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that he could have been taken out after it was 5-4 and there were men on first and second and Pierzynski was looking at the dugout as if to say, "When are you coming to get this guy? He's done".

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

One last thing. I have a lot of beefs with the way Guillen runs his offense, but in general I think he handles his pitchers as well as anyone. That was just a heartbreaking game to lose and a horrible way to lose it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm at the point now where bad loses don't upset me with the Sox. I know, like always, they'll be close to the lead or have a small lead come September and they'll either win it or blow it then.

I hope you're right. I don't think they'll blow the lead if they can get it by September. I just think that's a big "if". Detroit isn't going to lie down.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Besides his propensity to like the bunt and stolen base too much there isn't. He is an above average manager. Who would we have to replace him Last night's reaction was a prime example of some people just blaming everything on him because they do not like him for some reason "he is too loud", "he is "crazy", "he is a mexican (or worse)", "he doesn't have the fire anymore", "he doesn't have the passion anymore", "his players don't like him". etc etc etc. I don't know a single fucking manager in baseball that is going to warm up a Lucas fucking Harrell over Sergio Santos with two outs and nobody on base. Again, Santos had two outs and nobody on base. Only Lucas Harrell was available. Santos didn't do his job last night. Try as hard as you want, its not Ozzie's fault.



This is a prime example of just trying way to hard to pin things on Ozzie. Ozzie apparently screwed up by giving an all-star setup man, one of the most dominant pitchers in the game last year, who just signed a big contract a shot at closing. This messed up the rotation because "everyone had to move into unfamiliar roles". Who had to change roles? Nobody besides Santos and Thronton. Santos has done great as a closer. So I guess Ozzie must have screwed up Thornton somehow according to your argument.

The Bullpen has been very good overall, Ozzie didn't "screw it up". Thornton had trouble but is looking good now. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a shot at closing tonight. You do realize that its not just Ozzie who gives relievers there "roles" as well. Is Coop a big fucking idiot too? Juan Nieves?

99.9999 percent of people thought moving Matt Thornton to the closing role was a good idea. It still might be. Maybe Thornton comes out now and grabs the role. Obviously he is going to be used much more if he remains more consistent. Once again, he just fucked up a few times and didn't do his job. The player fucked up, his manager gave him a shot and he fucked it up. If you were able to predict Thornton having the trouble that he had than good for you, but I doubt you did.

You are not the baseball genius you apparently thing you are. Just give it a break.

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" THis poster said it's 90% that Bernstein goes national. He put a percentage on it. " - Beardown

Yup. I think they win it this year. The Sox with all cylinders clicking are better than the Tigers with

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" THis poster said it's 90% that Bernstein goes national. He put a percentage on it. " - Beardown

Santos hasn't "done great" as a closer. He's had a few opportunities and now he's blown two of them.

Anyway, I don't give a fuck about any of that ancillary shit you mentioned. Guillen is a goof. And I'd appreciate if you would stop acting as if anyone suggested bringing in Harrell instead of Santos. But it isnt unreasonable in any way to get a guy up after four straight guys reach and the pitcher is clearly coming undone. Why not bring Harrell three or four batters sooner? He got him up eventually, didnt he?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You took a poll, huh? Idiot.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The "defined" roles of the bullpen has done nothing but to deflect criticism away from the manager. 'Well, Santos is my closer. Why wouldn't I bring my closer in to close.' Having closers, 6th, 7th and 8th inning guys have allowed less then sharp baseball men to be heralded as sharp managers. I know that's the way things are done these days, but it doesn't mean they are better.
Like Rodney said, used to be the bullpen was filled with mostly guys who could not make it as starters. They kinda sucked actually. The majority of relievers do suck when the sample size is large enough. Sure, they will a few good seasons, but usually regress and end up sucking again.
Lightning in a bottle is the formula for relief pitchers, paging Cliff Politte, Dustin Hermanson etc. For every Rivera, I can name you fifty Mitch Williams or Randy Myers. I hate bullpens and all the angst they bring.

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We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

Nice catch by the Mushroom man to end the top of the 7th. Reminiscent of Joe Crede.

3-2 Sox. Bottom 7.

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So who will Ozzie go to in the 9th?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Brian Bruney.

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Frodo saves the day!

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Jesse Crain stays on to try for the four out save.

4 straight balls isn't a good way to start.

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Nice recovery after walking the leadoff hitter.

Sox win 3-2 and go for the series win tomorrow.

2 in a row for Danks. He may not lose again.

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This was a game we didn't deserve to win. So that makes up for yesterday. A's gave us 2 runs and the wind saved the HR that Lilly caught. Plus we sucked with guys in scoring position yet again.