The real deal:

http://www.amazon.com/Extra-2%25-Street ... 345517652/

2008 $43 MIL (2nd lowest in MLB) Won the AL East
2009 $63 MIL 3rd in AL East
2010 $71 MIL Won the AL East
2011 $41 MIL (2nd lowest in MLB) contending for the AL Wild Card spot

But that isn't really what the book was about. The book was about young Billy Beane's failure as a player and older Billy Beane's quest to avoid drafting young Billy Beanes. Instead he drafted young Badger Browns and David Becks and his draft didn't turn out much better or worse than one assembled via more traditional methods. So what was the point? To pay huge bonuses to guys who otherwise wouldn't have gotten them?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

First of all Chad Bradford was a good reliever in the league for years, and you overrate Olivo, who was no Karkovice defensively.

Secondly, you know thats not what it was about. That was one example of the method in use that looked to be in Beane's favor at the time (and still does) so it was used as an example.

Here's the main thing with this argument.

MONEYBALL WAS NEVER INTENDED OR PRESENTED AS A GUIDE TO SUCCESSFUL GM'ING


Its a story about a small market guy, who used a different method to try and make up for the payroll differences in MLB. Thats it.

If a local restaurant became popular because they started having schoolgirl costumed girls as waitresses, itd be an interesting story, but it wouldnt be telling other successful restaurants, Hire school girl costumed girls or youre dumb" and neither did Moneyball.

Even if you completely disagree with Beane's philosophy (which is finding value, not OBP...one year the value was in defense) the book is still good if you're a baseball fan. It offers a rare look in to the drafting process and GM'ing in general.

good post, rpb. i agree completely. "moneyball" isn't a how-to, it's a how-i-did. if some people want to use it to help their strategies, that's up to them.

Chad Bradford was a guy nobody ever thought about. He could get an out here or there. If you read the book and didn't know that, you'd have the idea he was Mariano Rivera. And I don't overrate Olivo, but he's certainly more valuable than Chad Bradford. My point is that the book was written in a way that made it seem Beane fleeced Williams in that deal and I don't believe anyone in baseball thought that at the time or thinks that now.



But it was a bad example. See above. And Lewis left out any detail that didn't fit the narrative he was providing. I'm not blaming him. He wrote a bestseller. But that doesn't mean people who should know better should eat it up. The Durham deal is an example. He was set to become a free agent. Williams moved him and got something before he did. That something was Jon Adkins. Not great. But Lewis made it out like Beane was a genius because he got Durham's bat for the playoff drive and then received two picks that might have been better than what he gave up. What he fails to mention is that the CBA was being negotiated at the time and it appeared that free agent compensation would be radically altered. Beane rolled the dice and MLB kept the compensation as it was, but I don't think Kenny was a fool for being aware that Letting Durham walk and getting zero was a real possibility at the time.




I pretty much agree with this. But the book isn't a scholastic text. Beane is the protaganist. It's more like In Cold Blood- a non-fiction novel.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I finally figured out what annoys me so much about this whole "Moneyball" thing. It's celebrating something that isn't really an accomplishment. The "statistics revolution" is just like most other revolutions. A large series of happenings all coming together to create a different way of operating. All Billy Beane did was use that slightly quicker than others but he didn't really do it very well. He wasn't really a pioneer, as he was more just in a "right place right time" situation and he wasn't good enough to even make a World Series with it. This would kind of be like if The Social Network was about friendster instead because they were a little earlier than myspace. Social networking was going to happen because the dynamics of the world had eventually reached the point where it would happen. Why celebrate a guy who simply was involved a little earlier? Baseball was going to find advanced statistics for reasons not having to do with Billy Beane, and Billy Beane failed to use them better than others outside of some division titles. He should be a minor footnote and instead he seems to be the face of it and people prop up the "accomplishment" that is a division title in order to justify things. Well, friendster had 3 million users in the first 3 months, and then they fell away. Ironically though, friendster currently seems more relevant than the team that Billy Beane manages.

So basically Billy Beane just happened to be there and was slightly faster than others to use other peoples work, and someone happened to write a book about him. That's the Billy Beane story broken down to it's basic level.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Truth.

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He was one of the best middle relievers in baseball for a long time


For 9 years straight without one bad year.



The book didnt make him out to be Rivera, it made him out to be a valuable commodity, which he was.

Olivo is not certainly more valuable than Chad Bradford. He's not at all actually. I wonder what makes you say that with such certainty. Olivo has been pretty worthless as a major leaguer and has had 4 years as a starter compared to Bradford's 12 as a reliever


An underperforming catcher, who at the time looked to be a bust, was traded for an effective reliever ready for the big leagues

It seems like Sox fans take it personally than Kenny was used in the book and that still affects their view of the whole thing to this day.

Not at all.

I'm more than happy with the accomplishments of Kenny Williams in comparison to the accomplishments of Billy Beane.

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See?

You cant even answer without turning it into a GM vs GM thing. Its not about Kenny or the best way to GM. Its about an interesting way to GM introduced into an old boys network.

I love Sox fans, fans of a team that didnt win one for 87 years, saying "he couldnt even win a World Series" (Like Winning one is fairly easy. )

Huh?

You said Sox fans were upset at Kenny being included in the book. I said no.

The celebration of Billy Beane is baffling.

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Sorry that I can think critically about him and his actual accomplishments. If he doesn't have this book written about him he's basically just "one of the first guys who embraced Sabermetrics in scouting". The point is that Sabermetrics is much bigger than Beane, and even you have admitted that others did it much better than him, so why is he a big deal? Oh that's right, he won the division a few times.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Who said its a big deal...Ive consistently used the word intersting.


I dont hear these people saying Beane is the best GM ever or even the best now or "Beane started SABRmetrics"

You turned it into a GM vs GM thing. Peeps responded accordingly.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He had a book written about him and it was made into a movie!

They created a movie for Moses too. Do you really think that Billy Beane = Moses?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Worst and most hilarious strawman argumemt ever.

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so?


Im not comparing Moses to Billy Beane. Moses did it one way and Beane another way, Ill let history decide who is more important.

how does that ignorant hillbilly hawk have the balls to be critical of beane or any gm..hawk was probably the worst gm i can think of..he fired the best manager this town has ever seen ,and is most definitely the worst broadcaster

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But seriously, the book and movie is not about just about Beane, its supposed to be about the numbers/method. Micheal Lewis may have had a crush on Beane but thats purely sexual.

Did you guys read it?


There is no celebration of Billy Beane....be baffled no more.

And FF, JORR brought up Kenny, and every time we talk about his here it turns into Kenny vs Beane.

And then you felt the need to project him as the spokesman for the fanbase?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Sweeping generalizations???!!

I don't believe it!

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HA! You should be so lucky

I didnt mean WE like me and JORR, anytime its talked about on this board it becomes Ozzie vs. Kenny ESPECIALLY when the old inventor of the Batting glove is involved.

Of course it's about him. The very first sentence of the Amazon.com editorial review is this.
I would wager that Beane is mentioned in the first two pages of the book too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I would wager that Beane is mentioned in the first two pages of the book too.[/quote]


So you havent even read the book? What are your other impressions of this book you didnt read?

The book aside, the Minnesota Twins are the small market ideal of the past quarter century. They should be what is analyzed for best practices. They previously did and continue to be what Beane wanted to be. Take it back even to the Hrbek et. al. days. They draft players, indoctrinate them into a system, bring them up for six years and then bring in the next guy. They were small market even when they had one of the wealthiest owners in the game.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

i think the marlins are much more successful on a small budget...they have 2 world series rings

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The book is not kind to KW. Beane seemed to mock Williams. I was shocked to hear that they are friends after reading the book. It is natural to make a comparison after reading the passages concerning KW.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Neither of which were won on a small budget.

How do you manage to dress yourself in the morning?

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I apologize. When I finally see this movie, and I find out that Billy Beane is only a bit character in it.

The director of this movie deserves awards for having a leading actor of "numbers/methods".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!