I never said he couldn't pitch. I said he isn't special.

I think that pitching in a highly favorable home park carries over on the road. We're talking about human beings. Success breeds success. The opposite is true as well. When you look at some of the good pitchers that Colorado brought in before they began messing with the balls and it was still a launching pad, you would expect their road splits to be as dominant as ever even if their offensive numbers against went way up at home. But that wasn't really the case. It's mentally fatiguing to get your brains beaten out. You may know intellectually that the park is the cause of your suddenly giant ERA, but overcoming that fact is another thing.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You said the guy was "serviceable, nothing more" which is ridiculous. He is one of the top 15 (if not top 10) SP's in the AL and "Kenny" traded him twice with zip to show for it.

He should have been axed after last season.

This.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

He's not close to being a top 15 starter in the AL. And I'm pretty sure Kenny got a Hall of Famer for him in one of those trades. Who is being ridiculous?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The thing I can't figure out is how all the so called experts fall over each other to suck AA's cock about what a great farm system he's built and how it's the best in baseball then when he trade one of his top prospects they take a step back and say "well he's only a 4th or 5th starter. So a top prospect from a top system only projects to a 4th or 5th starter?? Ok.....

He would have been a #3-4 on the Angels, WSox, Rays & Red Sox most days. He would have been nothing better than a #3 on at least a half dozen other AL teams.

"Top 15(if not top 10) SP in the AL" seems a bit high, no?

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I cant believe the Kenny hate. You gotta think this came from Cooper. Ventura may be thr manager but Cooper is who Kenny goes to first. Make no mistake about it. Cooper must see something in the kid and thought Santos was interchangeable with just about anyone. I'd trust Jesse Crain closing.

At what point do you point the finger at the players that failed? They were not suppose to and on paper, last years team was way better than 2005.

And remember, they play in the Central. Detroit is the favorite and they have an offense that relies on one guy. They could win that division.

If I'm being honest I dont see it happening. I think Dunn is done and Rios is a cancer who cant even field. Konerko has to start declining and I think it starts this year. The Sox are now the Cubs. Lots of big contracts on players that suck that no one wants that they are stuck with.

Facts on Gonzalez:

WAR 8th 2011
Wins, rank #4 in AL 2011, 10th in 2010
ERA, rank #10 2011, 8th 2010
K's 9th 2011, 4th in K's per 9
Games starts 2010 4th
Adjusted ERA 10th in 2010 & 2011

Looks Top 15 to me and CERTAINLY more than "serviceable".

As for the HOF'er, Thome, what did that get ya?? A wildcard berth?? OK???

I'm not sure where you're getting these "facts". I realize there are different versions of WAR (which raises all kinds of other questions and discussions) but I'm looking at Fangraphs right now and he's ranked 18th right behind such pitching luminaries as Gavin Floyd and Alexi Ogando. Ranked tenth is career cipher Brandon McCarthy, which lends a whole lot of credence to the theory I'm postulating about pitching in Oakland.

Gonzalez lacks command. He walks too many guys. You can spin the numbers anyway you want to.

As for that wildcard berth Thome got you, it's one more post season appearance than Gio has gotten anyone.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

8th in WAR via http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... gi01.shtml

If you want further proof of Gio's value, look at all the teams lining up trying to trade for him and the rumored packages. Strikeout LH's who start always have been and always will be in big time demand esp. when they are young, under team control, and have zero health issues.

Wow, what a couple of threads here!

Over the past 24 hours, we've got over 6 pages of posts on where Theo lives, and Gio fucking Gonzalez. If this is what baseball talk is gonna be like in these forums from now on, somebody shoot me now.

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Can we agree that demand for a player is not necessarily indicative of his future performance? I understand why he's considered valuable. I just don't think he is that valuable.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

At the end of the day, gents, there is only one way this franchise is going in the next 4-5 years.....and that's down the crapper. This saddens me b/c I thought they had at least another 3-4 Div. titles left in them and at most another World Series win. But moves, bad money, bad farm system and the inability to take a realistic long term view has wrecked this team and completely stopped the franchise in its tracks.

There have been some solid moves,some moves that looked good and didn't work out etc, but most have been not so hot so here we are.....arguing about Gio Fucking Gonzalez.

Things can turn around pretty quick one way or another. Unless it's a team that absolutely refuses to spend money, I don't think you can say a team is going to be bad over the next x amount of years. The Cubs might win the Central next season. I wouldn't bet on that, but it wouldn't shock me too much either. Let's say they get .500 seasons from Dempster and Zambrano (provided he's there) and Cashner has a breakout year. They're in the hunt. A year ago the Cubs looked hopeless and the Sox looked set for the future. Now they look about the same. Who knows how it will go?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What's wrong with the Gonzalez discussion?

It's a perfectly cromulent subject given the recent events of Hot Stove.

That's very true and I should have put that disclaimer in my post, but as a rational person taking a look a few years down the road one has to think that it isn't crazy to see this team being very bad.

For the White Sox to be "good" next season they need decent pitching ad solid production out of Konerko, Rios and Dunn. Not rocket science but I don't see Rios getting all that better and who knows about Dunn.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

_________________

The Sox do no wrong with FANBOY KEYSER!!!!

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There goes one over the fence..Tru Link Fence..Beauty, Privacy Security....Call Tru Link.
Murph's Union 76 Truck Stop....A great Thanksgiving Tradition!!!!

WOO LIFE!!!!

I guess playing under .500 for the past 3 seasons vs. the A.L. and within the A.L. Central means they were CONTENDING to some here?????
YOU have hit the nail on the head....NO PLAN other than Kenny's win now INSANITY!!!!

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There goes one over the fence..Tru Link Fence..Beauty, Privacy Security....Call Tru Link.
Murph's Union 76 Truck Stop....A great Thanksgiving Tradition!!!!

WOO LIFE!!!!

NAILED THE WHOLE FUCKING JOKE OF AN ORGANIZATION!!!!!!!!

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There goes one over the fence..Tru Link Fence..Beauty, Privacy Security....Call Tru Link.
Murph's Union 76 Truck Stop....A great Thanksgiving Tradition!!!!

WOO LIFE!!!!

Bears are the same way under Angelo and neither GM seems to be on the hot seat

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.