I know.

Lets not add another silly argument.

But at least in his Piston days he was the closest thing to Rodman in the league

Alright! Good talk guys! To wrap up, a guy you say was one of the best players of all-time and highly regarded throughout the league and among fans and writers during his playing days:

A) Made only two All-Star teams in a 14 year career (in spite of the fact that he was supposedly universally regarded as one of the best players by fans, coaches, and his peers).

B) Was featured in articles by Hall of Fame NBA writers questioning his attitude and the ability of a team to win with him.

C) Could only be traded for dialysis patients and Will Perdue.

This was a lot of fun. Let me know when you want to PWN me again.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

a) all-star argument is stupid, defensive players are going to be undervalued in an offensive-centric game.
b) sam smith sucks. that's your HOF writer. let's see anyone else here stand up for Sam Smith's credibility. he has virtually none
c) nice insults, but you can't have it both ways- value all-star selections but yet Sean Elliot was a current all-star at the time of the trade. hmmm. obviously you want to just pick and choose your arguments when it's convenient for you.

Yeah and then they won 3 more titles with Rodman and broke the single season win record. They don't win those titles without Rodman.

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rodman was a huge part of the last 3 ..but can't say they don't win minus rodman..if jordan does not retire he has ten rings with a scrub at center and horace grant/rodman interchangeable parts with the goat.

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what the hell does any of that mean?

rodman was a huge part....but can't say the don't win minus rodman

Wouldn't Ray Allen be the more natural comparison?


And JORR - like Bagels said, you're trying to pick and choose your arguments but we already explained why the Will Perdue argument is dumb(Aaron Williams) and why you bringing up Sam Smith was dumb(not only did he turn out to be incredibly wrong in that article, but he basically always turns out to be incredibly wrong and is considered a joke by pretty much every NBA fan. I guess you didn't realize that. And the whole tips the ball to himself so he can get extra rebounds was obviously one of the silliest arguments ever offered up here at the csfmb. You admitted several times that you don't know basketball as well as baseball yet every person in this thread that considers basketball their favorite sport and knows a ton about the league says you are flat out wrong. Maybe it's time to reevalutate.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I didn't realize you spoke for every NBA fan. Sam Smith is in the very same Hall of Fame in which you find it so important to include Dennis Rodman. If he's such a joke, who put him there? Someone respects him. And dare I say, it's someone with more power than a couple of wrong guys on a message board. He works for the NBA. Do you? Besides, I can find all kinds of articles by all kinds of NBA writers discussing all of Rodman's flaws and why he wasn't considered great at the time.

You keep ignoring the two FIRST ROUND picks that were traded for Carter and acting like it's the same thing as being traded straight up for Will Perdue. And Bagels is wrong to cite Sean Elliot. At the time of that trade, Elliot's career was in question. Detroit was just dumping a guy you keep insisting was so highly regarded. He wasn't. No matter how many times you insist he was, he just wasn't.

If Rodman was so highly regarded, why wasn't he on the original Dream Team? His guy, Chuck Daly was the fucking coach, for God's sake. Didn't they need defense and rebounding? Were Mullin and Laettner more important? He just wasn't thought of the way you guys keep insisting he was.

Finally, just because I know more about baseball than I do about basketball, doesn't mean I don't know more about the NBA than you and Bagels. You've both said a bunch of dumb shit in this thread. You should go back and read some of it.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Are you saying Ben Wallace had a better career and is more deserving of the Hall of Fame than Ray Allen?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

No. Dennis Rodman was better than Ben Wallace.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That wasn't the question. You suggested Wallace/Allen was a good comparison for Rodman/Miller, not me. If that's the case, doesn't it follow logically that you think Wallace is more deserving of Hall of Fame induction than Ray Allen? And let me point out one more time, that I have never once suggested in this thread that Rodman wasn't a deserving Hall of Famer.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

We've said a bunch of dumb shit? Your multiple-rebound-tip theory is easily the dumbest argument in this thread and you said Bill Bridges was as good a rebounder as Rodman and a better player. Maybe you should go back and check self.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No. I suggested Ray Allen was a natural comparison to Reggie Miller. I believe I said something like "a much better Ben Wallace" when describing Rodman earlier.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I considered him but I thought he was a little above Reggie's level and since we were taking a lesser Rodman, I figured take a lesser Reggie

That makes sense.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Since neither of us can prove that either way, let's leave it out of the discussion. One thing I'm 100 percent certain about, you had no idea who Bill Bridges was until I mentioned him. You ran to Basketball Reference and checked his numbers and saw that he averaged about 16 a game for a bunch of years. Then you came back here and tried to use an era/pace of game argument. But I'm going to be watching the next time it comes up to see if you jump in and start insisting the NBA was slower in the seventies since you're on record as saying it was faster. So check yourself before you look silly, Mr. NBA expert.

Many of the same guys who fancy themselves experts on "The League" in this forum, some of whom were arguing with me in this thread, are the same guys that treated IMU like a retrded child for suggesting Deng was close to the player that Carmelo Anthony is. Now, in all their NBA expertise, they're slowly backing away from that hard stance. So please spare me the rallying of a CSFMB "NBA expert" micro-mob.

I've attempted numerous times to extricate myself from this thread. I'm not convincing you of anything and you're certainly not going to convince me. Most of my argument is about how Dennis Rodman was viewed during his playing days. There was as much negative as positive. I remember it. And the silly argument that defense is as important as offense, well, then Craig Ehlo and Bill Hanzlik should be in the Hall of Fame ahead of George Gervin.

Bagels said it somewhere several pages back. Rodman was a special player. I agree with that. But there are other guys who did nearly what he did without removing themselves entirely from their teams' offenses. And if you want to argue that his value to his team was greater than any other player's value to his team, Zeph posted the evidence for you to do that. If you're going to make that argument, keep in mind that you must acknowledge that Marcus Camby was more valuable to his teams than Akeem was to his based on the same factors. To me, a specialist like Rodman can't be considered better than a guy who was the centerpiece of his teams and carried the bulk of the scoring load year after year. And during his playing career Rodman was not seen with the reverence that you are affording him after his playing days are through.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Yes I did know who Bill Bridges was before you mentioned him. You have no idea what the fuck I know or don't know about the league. And being pretentious doesn't serve you so well when you're clearly too thick to get what we are talking about with the pace of play. There were a ton more possessions in the 60's and 70's. FG%'s were lower than today and there were a ton more shots. Thats why nobody could get 45 rebounds in a game today. That has absolutely nothing to do with their athleticism or skill. How don't you get that?

Also I'm not one of those guys that says those guys couldn't play today. Some of them could. Dolph Schayes probably couldnt.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

There's one thing I know you don't remember for sure and that's the way fans, writers, GMs, coaches, and his fellow players thought about Rodman when he was playing. You have proven that in this thread.

So you know all about Bill Bridges. Any other guys who played before you were born that you're an expert on?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I never claimed to be an expert. But it's clear you from this thread you don't really have a firm grasp on Rodman and the differences of the league over the decades.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jorr you really take some odd positions when it comes to basketball. I've disagreed with you in the past but at least understood where you were coming from. You've lost me with this debate. You've attempted to adjust the debate many times and you've taken positions that I don't believe you buy.

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Yeah and then they won 3 more titles with Rodman and broke the single season win record. They don't win those titles without Rodman.[/quote]



rodman was a huge part of the last 3 ..but can't say they don't win minus rodman..if jordan does not retire he has ten rings with a scrub at center and horace grant/rodman interchangeable parts with the goat.[/quote]

what the hell does any of that mean?

rodman was a huge part....but can't say the don't win minus rodman[/quote]




i guess it means that jordan was the greatest of all time and it is not even close ..i have faith that he would have won if rodman was replaced with another role player...if jordan does not retire he probably has ten rings..i think he was bored with the game combined with the loss of his dad..the game was just that easy for him.

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The year when Jordan came back, the Bulls didn't have Rodman or anything interior player that could rebound. That was there weakest link, and why the Magic destroyed them with Grant & O'Neal that season. Having Rodman was a much better advantage over the 3 headed white monster the Bulls threw out there the year before.

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I've told you that Rodman was my favorite player ever. I consider him eminently more interesting than 99% of all the players who have ever played professional basketball. I followed his career from the time he began grabbing playing time in Detroit. I liked the Pistons for two reasons. I was a big Aguirre fan from his time at DePaul and I hated Michael Jordan.

But just because I've always liked Rodman, it doesn't mean I can't see clearly who he was as a player and the way people, including fans, writers, coaches, GMs, and his fellow players felt about him during his career. Zeph Marshack tried to take the conversation in another, more interesting direction, namely that Rodman was under-appreciated during his playing career. I'm open to that concept.

I remember Rodman's whole career very clearly. It seems to me that FF and Bagels were more interested in being right than seriously considering what I was saying. Wouldn't someone who really wanted the right answer say to himself, "Hmmmm, I remember everybody thinking this guy was a great player, but he was traded for a guy awaiting a kidney transplant and Will Perdue. Could I be mistaken in my memory?" Instead, the answer was to bring up Vince Carter and conveniently forget to mention the two first rounders that were included in his trade. I see that as a guy just trying to be right rather than a guy who wants the right answer.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

The line where you keep saying he was traded for Perdue is flawed. There wasn't anyone around the league that doubted his talent, but there were a bunch of teams out there that felt they couldn't control him, and eventually he would become a distraction. He wore out his welcome in San Antonio, and sunk that team his last season there because of his antics. San Antonio would have given him away for free if they could have. It wasn't because he was bad at basketball, but it was because no team wanted to deal with his bullshit. Chicago was able to get him for almost nothing and took the gamble that Phil and Michael would be able to control him enough. And it worked. They even signed Jack Haley because he was one of the only people that Rodman considered a friend. He got an NBA contract just to babysit somebody.

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I don't think his talent was ever in question. Other than his talent at putting the ball in the hoop. His erratic behavior beginning from the time that Daly left Detroit is a big part of the reason he was viewed the way he was. When Krause made that trade, Pippen was incredulous, like "Why did that moron trade for that goof." That was Dennis' reputation. It's not something I'm assigning to him. He assigned it to himself. But it's who he was.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

It seems like you are questioning his talent though. You keep bringing up the point that he was traded for Will Perdue and also for Sean Elliot. Why do you keep mentioning that?

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Because he wasn't seen as a great player. He was a guy who was seen as being of equal value to hospital patients and Will Perdue. You've covered the reasons for that, but those reasons were real.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

JORR, Big Chicagoan, Scorehead, John Starks.

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that and jordan came back in what? march ..he was rusty and not the usual best player in the league.

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That's true, but the Bulls were just abused down low by just about every team in the league. Toni Kukoc started a huge chunk of games at PF that season. That's a problem.

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