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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The other Chicago fan bases have enough fans that are doing well enough. The Sox have less.



I don't really think that's true, Rick. I believe studies have show that the Sox fan demographic is nearly exactly the same as the Cub fan. I think there are more Cub fans to begin with. And certainly more Cub fans close to their park. But attendance is down everywhere. Certainly economics are a factor.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I don't really think that's true, Rick. I believe studies have show that the Sox fan demographic is nearly exactly the same as the Cub fan. I think there are more Cub fans to begin with. And certainly more Cub fans close to their park. But attendance is down everywhere. Certainly economics are a factor.
That's interesting. It's probably more perception with the area than reality.

I can only speak from my experience, but the more money I make the more I start liking the Cubs.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The other Chicago fan bases have enough fans that are doing well enough. The Sox have less.



I don't really think that's true, Rick. I believe studies have show that the Sox fan demographic is nearly exactly the same as the Cub fan. I think there are more Cub fans to begin with. And certainly more Cub fans close to their park. But attendance is down everywhere. Certainly economics are a factor.


Not true. Baseball attendance is up 7% from last year.

There are 10 teams whose attendance is down from last year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I can only speak from my experience, but the more money I make the more I start liking the Cubs.


As a Purdue grad it completely makes sense that you are a Sox fan.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:00 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I can only speak from my experience, but the more money I make the more I start liking the Cubs.


As a Purdue grad it completely makes sense that you are a Sox fan.
I ain't no white trash.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The other Chicago fan bases have enough fans that are doing well enough. The Sox have less.



I don't really think that's true, Rick. I believe studies have show that the Sox fan demographic is nearly exactly the same as the Cub fan. I think there are more Cub fans to begin with. And certainly more Cub fans close to their park. But attendance is down everywhere. Certainly economics are a factor.


Not true. Baseball attendance is up 7% from last year.



Is that right? I'm guessing a lot of that jump is in Miami.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Looking team by team, there's 10 teams whose attendance is down.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml

Miami has had the highest jump. Nearly 500,000.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Looking team by team, there's 10 teams whose attendance is down.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml



Interesting. But I'm fairly certain real Cubs attendance isn't up form last season. With all the shuffling of tickets, it's tough to say what's real. A sold seat isn't really a sold seat when you sell it to yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
spanky wrote:
I'd actually enjoy a discussion about why the Sox attendance is so bad - not making the same usual jokes, but looking for the real, factual reason(s). Which is essentially what keeps them from being an actual "big market" franchise.
Any guesses/theories?


I think their biggest mistake was tring to turn baseball into an NBA game with constant aural and visual assaults. Reinsdorf saw that approach work with the Bulls (although having Jordan helped :lol: ) and he implemented at at his ballpark. Baseball isn't that kind of game. It's difficult to have a conversation at Sox Park. There's always some stupid noise. Baseball is a game of conversation. I think this type of "entertainment" is now pervasive throughout baseball, but the Sox were one of the leaders and remain one of the worst offenders. It's slowly crept into Wrigley and eventually it will take over there too. I don't think the marketeers really know what people like about baseball. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again.


It should have been a clue when Joe Stephen would get booed every time he showed his face in the 7th inning. He'd still be spinning records for the Sox if he hadn't made that Mark Langston mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:09 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RPB, I refuse to believe that you think all teams results should be viewed in an equal light. If that's the case it must really suck for a team like the Royals that they can't even get a Kenny Williams level GM over 2-3 decades.

The white sox are not the Royals

Payroll Rank since last WS
2011 4th
2010 7th
2009 12th
2008 5th
2007 5th
2006 4th

don't you think a much more accurate analysis would be to list the specific numbers in the payroll, then figure out the % difference? League rank by itself it pretty vague and not really informative.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
You can be as condescending as you want, but the discussion started when I said the Cubs had an extremely successful GM and you said "So do the Sox" which is saying they are equal.
That really isn't saying they are equal. The problem is you took it that way.
rogers park bryan wrote:
What if Kenny is 10th? What words would you use? A little above average?
10th would not be a little above average. That would be top third of the league.

I'd still love to see that list. I think you'd have a real hard time coming up with 9 other GM's that Kenny would trade his record of success with.

Remember, we aren't talking about ability, and we never were. We were talking about success.

Well, its hard to do rankings of GM's. Thats why I just hold them to a generic standard of wins instead of against each other. I mean 11 GM's are in year one or two, so you'd have to put them aside right?

Its too subjective (Rebuilding? Going for it? Good minor leagues?)


Here is the last one I found. S.I. used to do it yearly


1. Andrew Friedman, Tampa Bay Rays
For as much praise as the Rays have received over the last few years, they've probably deserved even more. Over the last three years they've spent just a million dollars per marginal win, the sort of thing that gets baseball wonks to draw hearts around pictures of Friedman. Maybe the best example of their method is the preposterous contract to which they signed Evan Longoria during his first days as a major leaguer -- if the Rays exercise all the options in the contract, they could end up paying him less than $50 million through his age 30 season, which makes him the single most valuable commodity in baseball. Friedman has also won a pennant and maintains one of the game's best farm systems. It may seem absurd to say of a 32-year-old whom few people had heard of a year and a half ago, but he and his braintrust are the best in baseball.
2. Theo Epstein, Boston Red Sox
Among baseball's really big spenders, the Red Sox are the most efficient, or, if you prefer, the least wasteful. It's difficult to avoid roster bloat while playing even-up with the Yankees, but they've managed it. Before signing starter John Lackey this winter, they didn't have a player making more than $14 million per year, and the team is built around cheap, homegrown talent. Like the Rays, the impressive thing about the Red Sox is that they may deserve even more hype than they get.
3. Brian Cashman, New York Yankees
Cashman's weakness isn't a small one -- the Yankees, the only team in baseball to routinely run $200 million payrolls, have recently been spending about four times as much per win as the Rays. Why, then, does he rank so high? His four world championships don't hurt, but the really impressive thing is that since he secured full control over baseball operations after the 2005 season, the Yankees have spent their money wisely, signing studs like CC Sabathia rather than sure bets for decline, and traded smartly, dealing the fruits of a much-improved farm system for players still in their prime, such as Curtis Granderson.
4. Larry Beinfest, Florida Marlins
Duly noted that Michael Hill is nominally the Marlins' general manager. That said, Beinfest, technically the team's president of baseball operations, consistently gets more wins for his dollar than anyone else in baseball. Since he took over following the 2002 season, the Marlins have won a World Series and posted winning records in five of seven seasons, despite consistently ranking at or near the bottom of the majors in payroll. Beinfest has picked up players every way you can -- trading for Hanley Ramirez, acquiring Dan Uggla in the Rule 5 draft, and bringing up players from the farm -- and on the few occasions he's had money to spend, he has spent it shrewdly.
5. Jack Zduriencik, Seattle Mariners
This may seem a preposterous ranking for someone who's only been in the job for a bit more than a year, but the key thing to note about Zduriencik is that he was already one of baseball's most highly regarded minds before coming to Seattle. His run of drafts for the Milwaukee Brewers in the 2000s was so good that he became the first scouting director to win Baseball America's Executive of the Year award. Since taking over the reins in Seattle, he has turned the Mariners into a contender, engineering their abrupt transformation from one of baseball's dullest organizations to one of its most progressive, such as by focusing on defensive studs such as Jack Wilson, Franklin Gutierrez and Casey Kotchman.
6. Doug Melvin, Milwaukee Brewers
There's a lingering air of unfulfilled potential about the Brewers, a sense that they took their shot two years ago when they traded for CC Sabathia and just missed (they lost in the NLDS). But Melvin made what had been perhaps baseball's blandest team relevant for the first time in decades, and he probably isn't done quite yet. Don't be surprised if he turns Prince Fielder into enough young talent to drive another serious run at a pennant.
7. Dan O'Dowd, Colorado Rockies
O'Dowd has built some thrilling teams recently, and done so on the cheap. It's been a long time since the Mike Hampton and Denny Neagle debacles, and granting that he's Baseball America's reigning Executive of the Year, O'Dowd still deserves more credit than he sometimes gets. He built his team up the right way and finally solved the problem of Coors Field by overseeing the introduction of the famed humidor.
8. Jon Daniels, Texas Rangers
General managers are always going on about the virtues of building a strong farm system, and what they generally mean is that they want to win major league games so they can keep their jobs. Daniels has actually built a preposterously good system (Justin Smoak, Neftali Feliz, Derek Holland) over the last few years, bringing in talent every way you can, and now has his team positioned to contend for the next several years. That he has kept the major league team perfectly respectable on modest payrolls while overseeing this rebuilding project is really very impressive, and with a good run over the next couple of years he could well move up on this list.
9. Ken Williams, Chicago White Sox
For someone regarded even by many of his own team's fans as somewhere between daft and clueless, Williams certainly has a habit of making killer trades, identifying undervalued players and putting together winning ballclubs. His basic philosophy of running out an 85-win team every year in the expectation that in its better years it will be a serious pennant contender is a bit strange for a big city team in a small-town division, but he has a World Series ring and several division flags that say it works.
10. Billy Beane, Oakland A's
Beane really seems to have been at least matched at his own game by a generation of younger general managers who learned, to some extent, from his example. He's still a fine and creative executive, and you have to wonder what he would do in a town like New York or Chicago, but he'll have to invent some new tricks to reclaim the title of the man who does most with the least. He could justifiably be ranked higher, but considering that his team has lost at least 86 games in each of the last three years, he could also be justifiably ranked lower.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:34 pm 
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4 of the ones ahead of Kenny haven't won a World Series so they're out.

Kenny Williams is a top 5 GM!

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:35 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
RPB, I refuse to believe that you think all teams results should be viewed in an equal light. If that's the case it must really suck for a team like the Royals that they can't even get a Kenny Williams level GM over 2-3 decades.

The white sox are not the Royals

Payroll Rank since last WS
2011 4th
2010 7th
2009 12th
2008 5th
2007 5th
2006 4th

don't you think a much more accurate analysis would be to list the specific numbers in the payroll, then figure out the % difference? League rank by itself it pretty vague and not really informative.

I think its pretty informative with regards to calling a team "small market"

Those are not small market rankings.

Here's link to the numbers though.

http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:36 pm 
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I'd say 2 behind Cashman.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:39 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Well, its hard to do rankings of GM's. Thats why I just hold them to a generic standard of wins instead of against each other. I mean 11 GM's are in year one or two, so you'd have to put them aside right?

Its too subjective (Rebuilding? Going for it? Good minor leagues?)
Once again, we are talking about success here, not ability. That was the discussion from the start.

Let me say what you won't. "Kenny has been very successful in his time as GM, primarily because he won a World Series".

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Agree Friedman is tops..cashman 2..epstein 3 ...Doug Melvin? hell no..Melvin is not even top 12...Kenny is top 10 for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:54 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
4 of the ones ahead of Kenny haven't won a World Series so they're out.

Kenny Williams is a top 5 GM!

So you're saying Theo is number one? I like it.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Well, its hard to do rankings of GM's. Thats why I just hold them to a generic standard of wins instead of against each other. I mean 11 GM's are in year one or two, so you'd have to put them aside right?

Its too subjective (Rebuilding? Going for it? Good minor leagues?)
Once again, we are talking about success here, not ability. That was the discussion from the start.

Let me say what you won't. "Kenny has been very successful in his time as GM, primarily because he won a World Series".

I dont know what you mean about success vs ability. A gm who took over in the last 18 months cant be fairly judged. Its as simple as that.


Kenny won a World Series. That year was very successful. His overall tenure has been above average.

Id shoot a little higher than Playoffs once every 5 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:04 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
I dont know what you mean about success vs ability. A gm who took over in the last 18 months cant be fairly judged. Its as simple as that.
I asked you how many GM's have been more successful than Kenny over his tenure because you had a problem with my characterization that Kenny has also been "extremely successful". That includes those who have been fired.
rogers park bryan wrote:
Id shoot a little higher than Playoffs once every 5 years.
There are very few GM's that have won a World Series and done better than that. Even the Rays only have 3 of them over the past 10 years, with no World Series title.

Would it be fair to say that Kenny has been more successful than Andrew Friedman?

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I dont know what you mean about success vs ability. A gm who took over in the last 18 months cant be fairly judged. Its as simple as that.
I asked you how many GM's have been more successful than Kenny over his tenure because you had a problem with my characterization that Kenny has also been "extremely successful". That includes those who have been fired.

See, I figured if I put Pat Gillick on the list, you would object.

rogers park bryan wrote:
Id shoot a little higher than Playoffs once every 5 years.
There are very few GM's that have won a World Series and done better than that. Even the Rays only have 3 of them over the past 10 years, with no World Series title.

Would it be fair to say that Kenny has been more successful than Andrew Friedman?[/quote]
Not sure. Depends on payroll, I guess. If you discount payroll, its Kenny. If not its A Free


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I dont know what you mean about success vs ability. A gm who took over in the last 18 months cant be fairly judged. Its as simple as that.
I asked you how many GM's have been more successful than Kenny over his tenure because you had a problem with my characterization that Kenny has also been "extremely successful". That includes those who have been fired.
rogers park bryan wrote:
Id shoot a little higher than Playoffs once every 5 years.
There are very few GM's that have won a World Series and done better than that. Even the Rays only have 3 of them over the past 10 years, with no World Series title.

Would it be fair to say that Kenny has been more successful than Andrew Friedman?


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Dempster to the DL with lat soreness.

Sox now lose only 2 of 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Dempster to the DL with lat soreness.

Sox now lose only 2 of 3.


Adios trade value.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Clevenger is starting at 1st tonight. The big vajay Soto behind the plate. Swaimer's hate for LaHair is at an all time high.

Check that...LaHair is in right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's gonna happen....Rizz is going to be up soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Urlacher's missing neck wrote:
Clevenger is starting at 1st tonight.

YES!

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:45 pm 
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LaHair is in left isn't he?

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Urlacher's missing neck wrote:
Clevenger is starting at 1st tonight. The big vajay Soto behind the plate. Swaimer's hate for LaHair is at an all time high.


:lol: :lol: :lol: He cant be stopped!!!! Steven Scott Clevenger

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Back to the Sox attendance thing:

Many of the "reasons" can be discredited, IMO,such as:

- Nothing else to do around the stadium except for tailgating: this is true of many stadiums. I can only speak personally of a few stadiums, but personal experience showed me that there is nothing around Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Detroit, or Atlanta either. I assume this true elsewhere also.

- More of a blue collar fan base than the other side of town: This would be hard to measure, but Pittsburgh, Detroit, and other teams have just as many if not more "blue collar" fans. There are also blue collar fans in other sports, why would this be an exclusive problem for one baseball team?

- The economic downturn has affected ticket sales: This is a national problem. This would not affect the Sox anymore than any other team.

The local media coverage of games been identical for many years now. WGN is not a reason for a lack of exposure for the Sox vs the Cubs, as has been used in the past. Both teams have games on 3 networks. The Cell may not be one baseball's premier venues, but it's not one of the bottom 1/3 or 1/10, so that shouldn't matter that much either.



The only legit reason that I can honestly come up with as to why the attendance is always lagging for the Sox, year after year:
There just aren't that many Sox fans out there in the world. Period. It's not that 50% of the people in the area aren't buying tickets, there just aren't enough people out there to buy the tickets. They buy them proportionately, that just happen to equate to 20k per game. Or less.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
spanky wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
There's an ongoing discussion about big markets and small markets and competitive balance.

Good point.

Which market does Kenny work in again? :lol:



Well, that's another discussion entirely. Obviously, he works in a big market. But his ownership acts as if they're a small market team. I don't think that has anything to do with Kenny Williams. It's just the situation that he's in.

Except for the White Sox payroll under Williams being consistently among the highest, your small market argument makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs @ Sox
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:02 pm 
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spanky wrote:
The only legit reason that I can honestly come up with as to why the attendance is always lagging for the Sox, year after year:
There just aren't that many Sox fans out there in the world. Period. It's not that 50% of the people in the area aren't buying tickets, there just aren't enough people out there to buy the tickets. They buy them proportionately, that just happen to equate to 20k per game. Or less.
The Sox had almost 3 million sold in 2006. They are now about about 2 million.

I think you are incorrect that it lags year after year. It has since then.

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