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Was Davey Johnson wrong ?
yes 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
no 91%  91%  [ 10 ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:10 pm 
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By David Brown | Big League Stew – 3 hours ago


Apparently using inside information, Washington Nationals manager Davey Johnson asked umpires to inspect Tampa Bay Rays relief pitcher Joel Peralta for a foreign substance Tuesday night. Sure enough, the baseball cops caught him with contraband on his glove: "A significant amount of pine tar," umpire Tim Tschida said. OK for hitters, but against the rules for pitchers. Umpires ejected Peralta before he even threw a pitch in Tampa Bay's 5-4 victory.

Peralta, who used to pitch for D.C., tipped his cap to the Nats' dugout and walked off, later saying it was his "batting practice" glove (whatever that is supposed to imply). Rays manager Joe Maddon was incensed — but not at his pitcher for trying to cheat. He called Johnson's actions "cowardly, bush [league], bogus, insider trading [and] way too easy."



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Ah, one of those "unwritten rules." Maddon used some other choice adjectives and adverbs, too. Reports James Wagner of the Washington Post:




Maddon on glove incident: "It was kind of a p***y move to go out there and do that under those circumstances. I like the word p***y move."

— James Wagner (@JamesWagnerWP) June 20, 2012

All right! And there are still two more games to go in this series. Johnson said he was only using the information he had.


"It was a rumor that he liked a little pine tar," Johnson said. "I was hesitant to do it. Tim [Tschida] was looking at me kind of grinning. He said, 'What do you want?' I walked out and said, 'Why don't you check it, just to make sure. I'm curious.' "


Asked where the rumor came from, Johnson answered: "Well, he pitched here. I don't think it's a secret."

Maddon's beef is this: The information Johnson used was gained in confidence, not through scouting or general observance. If every team did what Johnson did, players (theoretically) would never share anything with their own teammates, because then all bets are off when someone gets sent to another team. The game would be no more competitive, just nastier.

Can you hear the sirens, Fernando? (AP)Side note: Tschida told Maddon he could check one opposing player in response (that's a weird rule), so the umps patted down Washington's Ryan Mattheus but found nothing untoward. Fernando Rodney, the Rays reliever who got the save, came out in the ninth with his hands up and his glove between his legs. Funny.

Maddon didn't deny the charges — because, why bother? — but said it was a "common practice" for pitchers to use pine tar on their gloves. The sticky stuff helps you get a grip. Cheating happens, he's saying. But there's a gentleman's agreement as to how to regulate it. And now he looks like a jerk who condones cheating, when any manager in the league — including Johnson — has players who do what Peralta did.

MLB might be a haven for cheaters and liars, but once we get to tattling, there's anarchy for ya.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Shit like this drives me nuts (YAR!). You have a player that is cheating and the story is whether or not the opposing manager was wrong for calling him out. Baseball is really messed up.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Dont cheat. Dont share trade secrets that can be used against you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:31 pm 
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This is bullshit and Davey Johnson should be ashamed of himself. Every pitcher in baseball uses something to help them get a better grip on the ball including guys on the Nats. He just opened an enormous can of worms. Enjoy the repercussions, Dickhead.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
This is bullshit and Davey Johnson should be ashamed of himself. Every pitcher in baseball uses something to help them get a better grip on the ball including guys on the Nats. He just opened an enormous can of worms. Enjoy the repercussions, Dickhead.

How dare someone expose cheating?!?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:47 pm 
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If my former team knows I cheat, I'm probably not going to cheat against them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Gonna have to think about this one....I see both sides of the tale. There is cheating and gamesmanship, not sure which this is. Baseball is not a cut and dry sport when it comes to these things, stealing signs comes to mind.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
This is bullshit and Davey Johnson should be ashamed of himself. Every pitcher in baseball uses something to help them get a better grip on the ball including guys on the Nats. He just opened an enormous can of worms. Enjoy the repercussions, Dickhead.


So if every pitcher used HGH you would be OK with that?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:14 pm 
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conns7901 wrote:
If my former team knows I cheat, I'm probably not going to cheat against them.



This.

If you're stupid enough to cheat vs your former team than you deserve to be caught.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Well, Johnson is admitting that a Nationals pitcher "cheated" and his teammates knew about it. I would call using the pine tar gamesmanship rather than flat out cheating. But I would also call what Johnson did gamesmanship in return. Baseball has a long tradition of guys fucking with each other. I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with Sumo, but so much of what happens in the ring is each guy attempting to mind-fuck his opponent. The battle between pitcher and batter often reminds me of that, with a batter attempting to get time just as the pitcher gets set and the pitcher stepping off as the batter has gotten comfortable in the box.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
'm not sure how many of you are familiar with Sumo, .

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JORR explains how he ended up a bag man for a corrupt japanese business man who ran a sumo gambling ring and how he almost had to break Woody Allen's legs over 10,000 yen


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:18 pm 
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As has been said, don't be stupid enough to cheat against your former team.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:28 am 
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Pine tar is not cheating. It only helps with grip and doesn't change the flight of the ball. Every pitcher in baseball uses something to help them get a better grip on the ball. Pine tar, griplock, hair spray/gel, chapstick, sunblock, etc. It's cheating when they use something that changes the flight of the ball like spit, ky, vaseline, emoryboard, tack, etc.

What Peralta did is not cheating. I don't know what Davey Johnson's endgame is but he just shined a giant light on his own pitchers for the rest of the season.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:29 am 
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This is stupid. Of course it's cheating! That's why he was kicked out. That's why he may be suspended.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:32 am 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Pine tar is not cheating. It only helps with grip and doesn't change the flight of the ball. Every pitcher in baseball uses something to help them get a better grip on the ball. Pine tar, griplock, hair spray/gel, chapstick, sunblock, etc. It's cheating when they use something that changes the flight of the ball like spit, ky, vaseline, emoryboard, tack, etc.

What Peralta did is not cheating. I don't know what Davey Johnson's endgame is but he just shined a giant light on his own pitchers for the rest of the season.

If it's not cheating, then why was he ejected? Did the umpire not know the rules of the game?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:34 am 
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Just win baby. Davey Johnson is awesome. In pro ball for 50 years!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:35 am 
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I love Davey Johnson but I think this was a dumb move.

Yes its cheating, but I'm sure his pitchers do the same.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:37 am 
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It's a stupid rule and one that is ignored by everyone in baseball. Why is there a rosin bag on the mound? That's a foreign substance. Rosin is ok but pine par is cheating?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:38 am 
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Wouldn't a "significant amount of pine tar" change the trajectory of the ball? Get enough on there and you're compromising the baseball's spherical qualities as much as spitballing or emeryboarding.

You know what this does, incidentally? Shows what a big fuckin' farce Joe Maddon is. All this talk about how he's a different kind of manager, a cerebral, unorthodox philosopher of grass and dirt because he wears glasses and draws up stupid t-shirts, and what does he do when his player gets called out for old-fashioned ball-doctoring? BLUH FLUH THAT'S DIRTY TO TALK ABOUT MUH CHEATIN' THAT'S THE WAY WE ALL DO IT WE'RE GONNA GIT YOU FOR THAT PUSSY MOVE. Where's your intellectual high ground now? Nowhere. You're Tony La Russa on a Weezer kick. I'm surprised you didn't throw at anyone for this injustice of your own team's doing. Get over yourself and go away.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:39 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
This is stupid. Of course it's cheating! That's why he was kicked out. That's why he may be suspended.


Yeah, it's cheating. But there are degrees of cheating. Technically it's cheating to put anything into a horse on race day other than hay, oats, or water. But you couldn't race one that way and compete and nobody does. Every pitcher uses some foreign substance to grip the ball. That's how they ply their trade. Now one guy is going to be called on the carpet for it because Davey Johnson broke protocol. In a way, it's similar to the Bonehead Merkle play. It was custom to run off the field in that situation, although strictly against the rules. Some idiot umpire decided to listen to Johnny Evers and give the Cubs a championship they didn't deserve.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:39 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
I love Davey Johnson but I think this was a dumb move.

Yes its cheating, but I'm sure his pitchers do the same.


Considering this guy was his pitcher last year, it proves he allows his pitchers to cheat.

The lesson is to not cheat against people who know that you cheat. You wouldn't go to a Vegas Casino if you were a known card counter. But you may go to some crappy Indian casino.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:40 am 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
It's a stupid rule and one that is ignored by everyone in baseball. Why is there a rosin bag on the mound? That's a foreign substance. Rosin is ok but pine par is cheating?

Ok, so now it's just a stupid rule. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Any other rules you think the umpires should ignore?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:45 am 
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Davey Johnson likely used a corked bat as a player. He managed guys who used corked bats (Ho-Jo for one). He accused andre dawson of using a corked bat. He plays mind games. I love Davey Johnson!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:04 am 
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He may be playing mind games but this one will come back to bite him in the ass when there are guys on his team doing the same damn thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:05 am 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
He may be playing mind games but this one will come back to bite him in the ass when there are guys on his team doing the same damn thing.

You mean his players that are cheating will also get in trouble? What a crazy idea.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:08 am 
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The umpires already ignore several rules

Neighborhood play at second, Catcher must stay in box (Intentional walks), The clock on throwing a pitch


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:10 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
The umpires already ignore several rules

Neighborhood play at second, Catcher must stay in box (Intentional walks), The clock on throwing a pitch

Travelling in NBA.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
The umpires already ignore several rules

Neighborhood play at second, Catcher must stay in box (Intentional walks), The clock on throwing a pitch

Travelling in NBA.

Holding in football

Punching opponent in face in hockey (that has to violate some sort of rule)


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