Hey, I never tell anyone how to post. You do whatever you want. My view is that you used to be a strong contributor to this forum and now you do a lot of trolling. Yeah, Panther may have taken a Howitzer to you when you used a BB gun, but the fact is, you fired the first shot.

Anyway, if you're really looking for an answer, my view is simple. Theo has been in the job one season. He has produced one of the three worst Cub seasons in history. Right now that is his complete body of work in Chicago. You may be assuming he is building something great. That might even be the case. But I don't think he can be credited for that until it occurs.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

How do fans rate a GM? What is your criteria? As a part of the rebuilding process, this year was a total success. But in terms of rings, it was a failure. Like just about every other Cubs GM.


Like you said, if Theo doesn't win, he is a failure. Hendry didn't win, so he is a failure. So as of right now, they are both failures then.

How on earth can you call the rebuilding process a total success?? They made a couple awful trades (Stewart, Marshall), made bad 40 man roster decisions (Flaherty) and the prospects who were believed to be the closest to the majors went backwards (Jackson, Vitters, McNutt). Sure they had a good draft and the Soler signing looks good but the mistakes have moved the timeline back at least one and more likely two years.

Guess it is how you frame it. Marshall deal was bad. But they had a great draft, signed Soler, moved the big bad contracts as best as possible, traded for Rizzo, lucked in to a Soriano with value, etc.


Hard to say the timeline has moved back two years, especially since we don't know what the initial timeline was. And I'm not sure they get blamed for Vitters and Jackson not panning out. They may just not be good players, unfortunately.

Well if you're talking about Laura, it'd probably be one of those biker chain wallets, no?

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

I never liked the Marshall trade...but you can't really put too much blame on Theo for this awful season..he was handed a shit roster...In 3 years we will know if Epstein is the real mccoy or just another turd...Imo Friedman is the best GM in MLB...And the lousy prospects that were in already in the system like Vitters can't fall on him either..I liked the draft and Rizzo looks like a solid pick up.

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Well, I wouldn't consider Theo a failure for not winning a World Series, just as I don't consider Hendry a failure. But it seems Cub fans largely do consider Hendry a failure and obviously ownership felt the same way, so within that context I think a paradigm has been established wherein Theo is definitely a failure if he fails to win a World Series.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I'm not sure how we know they had a great draft. I remember when the "Moneyball draft" was great. Now it isn't.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Based on the information we have right now, it's a great draft. That's all you can do. It may turn out to be a bad draft, of course. This is obvious. But for now, it looks good.

Whatever. I'm curious, though, how believeable you found his story.



Yeah but he specifically said he was going to be tearing this thing down and that he wouldn't be getting free agents for a temporary fix. It takes time to repair Hendrian damage. The team was saddled with terrible contracts and bad farm system. You can't recover from that kind of thing in 9 months. You have to rebuild with picks which take years to make it to the show. You have to get out from under bad contracts which require giving up money and maybe some talent in trade. You have to get prospects and picks which require giving up talent you might otherwise keep, like Marshall, and results take years to materialize.

Seaasons and situations like this, in my opinion, seperate meatballs from the smart fans.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I feel like JORR thinks we are arguing that a 100+loss season isn't bad. Of course it is! It's part of Theo's plan. And if Theo's plan doesn't work, then it wasn't worth it. And he is a failure. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

If Theo fails miserably are you guys still the smart fans?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No, I don't think you're arguing that. Obviously, you know 2012 was an awful year for the Cubs. I just think you're granting Epstein a lot of leeway based on the fact that no one else has won there in 104 years. I just see it differently. Baseball is a funny game. Maybe last season was the year to win and it was wasted losing on purpose. I just don't think a team should throw seasons away. Especially a team that hasn't won in over a century.

In a different way, it's like Washington sitting Strasburg. There's the assumption that there will be better times down the road and that ain't necessarily so. Now, it's not nearly that bad since Washington might have easily won the whole thing and a whole lot would have had to go right for the Cubs to get close.

But let's look at this season. Nobody really expected the Cardinals to win 88 games after losing Pujols and LaRussa. They did and that barely squeaked them in, but if a few things break the wrong way, they aren't in the conversation and 85 or 86 wins might get you in the "crapshoot". Could Epstein have built a team around the years that Dempster and Maholm had that could have won that many games? If he's as good as everyone seems to believe, the answer should be yes.

Finally, I take issue with anyone saying "Hendry left the cupboard bare" and Theo rebuilt with guys like Rizzo. If the cupboard was really bare, what would Theo have used to get Rizzo? Someone's perception was that Cashner had as much/more value than Rizzo.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And a lot of it is perception anyway. Soriano earned every penny of his contract last year.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The future is irrelevant to my point. Everyone knew that last year would be miserable. Theo said it himself.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

They didn't HAVE to make that trade. He left them with a corps of Adrian Gonzalez Dustin Pedroia Ellsbury Youkalis/Middlebrooks Letter Buckholz and Beckett

Not exactly an empty cupboard. He definitely made some mistakes at the end but that's bound to happen eventually after a long run of success

Yes he might not be great in 3 years. Its possible. But the evidence we have suggests he has a good chance to have success.


Should Cub fans dislike him because he might end up failing?

I don't think that's the point. Everybody knows Theo said that was the plan. JORR's point is that it's a dumb plan if you're a big market team.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

JORR is wrong. 2012 had to happen the way it happened.
What JORR seems to be wanting is another Hendryesque season. The rest of us were sick of that shit.
My point about smart fans and meatballs is that only the meatballs were pissed about the 2012 season.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I wonder if Jed Hoyer ever reads the board and gets jealous of the Theo talk?

Well maybe they didn't have to make that trade, but they felt like they had to, which is really all that matters.

Of course Cubs fans shouldn't dislike Theo because he might end up failing. I just don't see anything to be excited about right now.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

His position is a sham. Everyone knows who is really running this team.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

You can't say for certain JORR was wrong. If Theo's plan doesn't work then JORR was obviously right.

Only meatballs care that their team was a laughingstock this year? Ok.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

THis is what I don't get. It's a rebuilding process. They're not going to go score aging free agents like the Cubs did in the past. That era is a) failed and b) over with. Forget about that kind of baseball. This is an entirely new THEOry on baseball. Its like nothing we've seen in Chicago before.

Look, you want to be excited? How would you do that? Go get a big name free agent? Would that really make a significant impact on playoff/WS chances? not particularly. It would most likely harm the long term goal of home growing sustained success.

This isn't the two three year turnaround policy. It's going to take time. The Cubs and their fans have long demanded instant gratification and it has never worked.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Theo has taken the "wait til next year" mantra that Cubs fans were sick of and turned it into "wait 4 or 5 years". He is a genius.

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What? No. JORR is wrong in saying that you can't run a big market team like this. Obviously, the other way, getting big ol free agents and what not did not work. Is he postulating that the way to run the team is the way that has failed for the last 104 years?


As for your meatballs statement... I'm not sure how you managed to completely misunderstand what I was saying. NO, we're ALL upset that the team was a "laughingstock" (something I'd be willing to debate... the Cubs did exactly what they said they'd do, and played pretty much up to everyones expectations, which isn't exactly a "laughingstock". Its the process toward future success).

I'm saying that of course Cubs fans were upset about losing 100+ games. The meatballs were demanding free agents... the meatballs don't understand that it was part of the plan, they thought there would be immediate gratification or something... they didn't understand that this had to happen the way it happened.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Rebuilding. Hello??? ECHO!!

Sounds to me like a lot of you want Hendry back. Spend shit-tons of money on those big name free agents and waste minor league talent and never have long term success.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I don't care at all.

But there is an absolute faith that some Cub fans put in Theo that is mind boggling.

And you can rebuild whilst not being God awful.

_________________

Where are you getting the "absolute faith" thing from? I think the only person I've gotten that impression from is Cubbieswhale.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

It's disingenuous to suggest JORR's idea hasn't worked for 104 years. It hasn't worked for the Cubs for that long. It's worked quite well in New York.

I guess we just view this differently. I consider any team that loses 100+ games a laughingstock. The fact that management said that was their intention doesn't make it better, it makes it worse. JORR was right that the White Sox would be getting killed by the media and on here if they did this.

I understand what you're saying about rebuilding. You can do that and compete. Cubs have the resources. If the Cubs lose 100+ games again next season is that going to be acceptable?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You can't be serious. You just suggested it was a fact that JORR was wrong and Theo was right. That's about as "absolute faith" as it gets man.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul