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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:08 am 
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spanky wrote:
And yes, Purdue is the definition of a conference doormat.
Please elaborate. Also, use actual reasoning.

The standings of the past 15 years would not be kind to your thought here. I'd love to hear your case though.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:10 am 
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I hate Purdue as much as anyone. But I don't see them as a conference doormat. How many bowls have they been to over the last 10-15 years?

Indiana and Minnesota have been the conference doormats, with Illinois taking their spot this year.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:13 am 
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Bucky Chris wrote:
OK
Seriously though. He didn't say they desperately want an offensive minded coach. They just want a pass happy system. Doeren seems to be doing well with Jordan Lynch.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:32 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
spanky wrote:
And yes, Purdue is the definition of a conference doormat.
Please elaborate. Also, use actual reasoning.

The standings of the past 15 years would not be kind to your thought here. I'd love to hear your case though.

They've won double digit games exactly one time. In 1979.

They've been to the Rose Bowl (your own standard of excellence) twice.
They have one outright conference championship, ever. 1929.
They have 6 co-championships, but only one since 1967. And again, they've been to the Rose Bowl twice.

They have been to quite a few minor bowl games (with the explosion of automatic tie-ins) since 1997. They are 6-6 in those games.

"Doormat" was probably too harsh. They are a program that's in the bottom third of the conference. Now and all-time.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:48 am 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
spanky wrote:
And yes, Purdue is the definition of a conference doormat.
Please elaborate. Also, use actual reasoning.

The standings of the past 15 years would not be kind to your thought here. I'd love to hear your case though.

They've won double digit games exactly one time. In 1979.

They've been to the Rose Bowl (your own standard of excellence) twice.
They have one outright conference championship, ever. 1929.
They have 6 co-championships, but only one since 1967. And again, they've been to the Rose Bowl twice.

They have been to quite a few minor bowl games (with the explosion of automatic tie-ins) since 1997. They are 6-6 in those games.
Wow. You judge conference doormats by conference championships? Something seems off about that. Yes, they've been routinely dominated by Ohio State, and Michigan. It's the Big Ten. That's how it works.

Also, I cannot believe you cited bowl game record. What does that matter? You are aware that bowl games are played against out of conference opponents right?

So yes, you are right. Purdue is not one of the best programs in the Big Ten. :lol:
spanky wrote:
"Doormat" was probably too harsh. They are a program that's in the bottom third of the conference. Now and all-time.
:lol: All time they probably are, because they were terrible for the 70s, 80s and early 90s. Now, they definitely aren't. They were an average Big Ten team, now, they are below average.

Joe Tiller was 53-43 in conference. Even Danny Hope, who was fired for not being good enough, went .500 in the Big Ten twice(average). That means, since 1997, Purdue is 66-62 in conference play.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:58 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Tiller was 53-43 in conference. Even Danny Hope, who was fired for not being good enough, went .500 in the Big Ten twice(average). That means, since 1997, Purdue is 66-62 in conference play.

....and those are the "glory years". You're using a mediocre record over a span of 15 years to point out how much better they are now than they used to be. Yikes. I feel even more confident about it now.


They are a bottom-third BigTen team. That's a lot different than being "routinely dominated" by Michigan and Ohio State.

It's also Wisconsin, Penn St, Iowa, Nebraska........Since 1997 they have pretty much been Northwestern, except NW is clearly in a better place this year and going forward than Purdue is.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:09 am 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Tiller was 53-43 in conference. Even Danny Hope, who was fired for not being good enough, went .500 in the Big Ten twice(average). That means, since 1997, Purdue is 66-62 in conference play.

....and those are the "glory years". You're using a mediocre record over a span of 15 years to point out how much better they are now than they used to be. Yikes. I feel even more confident about it now.
Yes, which means they aren't a doormat. They are mediocre.
spanky wrote:
They are a bottom-third BigTen team. That's a lot different than being "routinely dominated" by Michigan and Ohio State.
Don't twist things around. Michigan and Ohio State dominated the conference championship and Rose Bowl appearances. That was my point.
spanky wrote:
It's also Wisconsin, Penn St, Iowa, Nebraska........Since 1997 they have pretty much been Northwestern, except NW is clearly in a better place this year and going forward than Purdue is.
Nebraska? :lol: Can I count Rutgers and Maryland too?

Purdue has been an average team for the past 15 years. Even now, they finish right around the middle of the Big Ten most years.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:20 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nebraska? :lol:

Sorry, why are you laughing? Is Purdue a better Big Ten team than Nebraska? Is it even close?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:22 am 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nebraska? :lol:

Sorry, why are you laughing? Is Purdue a better Big Ten team than Nebraska? Is it even close?
Well, you keep on jumping time frames here. Unless you are talking about the Big Ten of the past 2 years, then Nebraska matters little.

Anyways, in the past 15 years, Purdue has been a mediocre football team. There really is no arguing otherwise.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:26 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Don't twist things around. Michigan and Ohio State dominated the conference championship and Rose Bowl appearances. That was my point.

I'm not twisting anything around. You yourself have stated that's the best thing about the current bowl system and being in the Big Ten: the chance at going to the Rose Bowl. Congrats on getting there, both times. Even now, with the BCS system, there is an increased chance of getting there, and they still don't even sniff it.

Rose Bowl Appearances:

Michigan - 20
Ohio St - 14
Wisconsin - 8
Illinois - 5
Iowa - 5
Mich St - 4
Penn St - 3
Nebraska - 2 (just as many in their short Big Ten history as in Purdue's long, storied history. You're right, it is kinda funny)
Minnesota - 2
Northwestern - 2
Purdue - 2
Indiana - 1

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:28 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Well, you keep on jumping time frames here. Unless you are talking about the Big Ten of the past 2 years, then Nebraska matters little.

:lol: Re-read the thread. Who started using time frames? You brought up "since 1997" to demonstrate how good of a program they have been since that time.


Which they haven't. They've been "mediocre" which isn't the same as good. They are a bottom-third program in the conference, now and always.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:32 am 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Don't twist things around. Michigan and Ohio State dominated the conference championship and Rose Bowl appearances. That was my point.

I'm not twisting anything around. You yourself have stated that's the best thing about the current bowl system and being in the Big Ten: the chance at going to the Rose Bowl. Congrats on getting there, both times. Even now, with the BCS system, there is an increased chance of getting there, and they still don't even sniff it.

Rose Bowl Appearances:

Michigan - 20
Ohio St - 14
Wisconsin - 8
Illinois - 5
Iowa - 5
Mich St - 4
Penn St - 3
Nebraska - 2 (just as many in their short Big Ten history as in Purdue's long, storied history. You're right, it is kinda funny)
Minnesota - 2
Northwestern - 2
Purdue - 2
Indiana - 1
I don't know what you are arguing here. Rose Bowl games are an indication of who was the best in the Big Ten, not the worst. Michigan and Ohio State have dominated Rose Bowl attendance, so it's not really a good indication on who was bad, but on who was good.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:36 am 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Well, you keep on jumping time frames here. Unless you are talking about the Big Ten of the past 2 years, then Nebraska matters little.

:lol: Re-read the thread. Who started using time frames? You brought up "since 1997" to demonstrate how good of a program they have been since that time.


Which they haven't. They've been "mediocre" which isn't the same as good. They are a bottom-third program in the conference, now and always.
I just reread the thread. Where did I say they were a good Big Ten team? I said they weren't a doormat, which is true, and that they were average/mediocre/middle of the pack.

You read what you want to read a lot it seems. I would never argue that Purdue is a good Big Ten team(at least not now given the last 5 years of mediocre to below average results).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:42 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You read what you want to read a lot it seems.

:lol: Priceless coming from you.


Going back to the actual reason why we're talking about this, which programs are better for a coach who would (theoretically) have his pick of any Big Ten team to take a job at?

I'll start:

1. Ohio St.
2. Michigan
3. Wisconsin
4. Nebraska

Now, go ahead and tell me how much farther you get on the list before you get to Purdue......

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:43 am 
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So, since spanky played the "read the thread" card, I want to point out this is the very first thing I said about what Purdue is. spanky, where do I ever call them a good Big Ten program?
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
:lol: All time they probably are, because they were terrible for the 70s, 80s and early 90s. Now, they definitely aren't. They were an average Big Ten team, now, they are below average.


By the way, do you think Doeren will go to Purdue?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:46 am 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You read what you want to read a lot it seems.

:lol: Priceless coming from you.


Going back to the actual reason why we're talking about this, which programs are better for a coach who would (theoretically) have his pick of any Big Ten team to take a job at?

I'll start:

1. Ohio St.
2. Michigan
3. Wisconsin
4. Nebraska

Now, go ahead and tell me how much farther you get on the list before you get to Purdue......
For the same amount of money?
5. Penn State
Then it's a big blob of Iowa, Purdue, Michigan State, and probably Illinois. I really don't know how you would rank them.

Below that is Minnesota, Indiana, and Northwestern.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:49 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So, since spanky played the "read the thread" card, I want to point out this is the very first thing I said about what Purdue is. spanky, where do I ever call them a good Big Ten program?
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
:lol: All time they probably are, because they were terrible for the 70s, 80s and early 90s. Now, they definitely aren't. They were an average Big Ten team, now, they are below average.

So what are you arguing? They were terrible for decades, now they've been mediocre for a portion of 15 years, so they aren't a bottom-third program in the conference for a potential coach?
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
By the way, do you think Doeren will go to Purdue?

No idea, I don't pretend to know back-room workings and other people's intentions like some people in this thread have.

IMO, he's in a good spot at NIU to have yet another good season next year, pad his resume even further, and wait for a better opportunity than Purdue.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:51 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
spanky wrote:
I'd hope Doeren wouldn't make the same mistake as Kill and leave a good team for a conference doormat. It would take a lot of $$ I suppose, and Purdue doesn't have a history of throwing $$$ around.
:lol: Purdue isn't a conference doormat. This isn't the early 90s.
spanky wrote:
Purdue is not a better job than BC. I'm not sure it's a better job than any of the others listed in this thread.
I would not talk down Purdue much if I were you. It could be used against you in your next "NIU is a better program than Illinois" debate.


I'm an Illinois fan and I'll say it...Right now, NIU is a better football program than Illinois.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:52 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
For the same amount of money?
5. Penn State
Then it's a big blob of Iowa, Purdue, Michigan State, and probably Illinois. I really don't know how you would rank them.

Below that is Minnesota, Indiana, and Northwestern.

It'd only be "the same amount of money" if everybody else was forced to stoop to what Purdue is willing to spend. So, money counts of course.

You think Iowa, Michigan State and Purdue are all on the same level? Do you really think that?

Minnesota has better facilities. Northwestern is in better shape as a program right now.

I'd say the "blob" is more like Indiana, Illinois, and Purdue for sure. Maybe Minesota.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:55 am 
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spanky wrote:
So what are you arguing? They were terrible for decades, now they've been mediocre for a portion of 15 years, so they aren't a bottom-third program in the conference for a potential coach?
They've been average for 15 years. They've been good for a portion of 15 years(97-03).

They are an average Big Ten program now and a potential coach would not put them at the bottom.
spanky wrote:
IMO, he's in a good spot at NIU to have yet another good season next year, pad his resume even further, and wait for a better opportunity than Purdue.
Your last coach jumped to a worse program with a better resume.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:57 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Your last coach jumped to a worse program with a better resume.

Right. Which is what I initially said. Maybe you caught that when you re-read the thread again.

(Minnesota is not worse, and I'm not sure he had a "better" resume for a potential Big Ten hire)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:02 pm 
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spanky wrote:
It'd only be "the same amount of money" if everybody else was forced to stoop to what Purdue is willing to spend. So, money counts of course.
Huh? Purdue is going to spend something like $1.5 to $2 million for the next coach. Hope was underpaid, but that's because he didn't really command a high salary.
spanky wrote:
You think Iowa, Michigan State and Purdue are all on the same level? Do you really think that?
Yes. It's all subjective but those programs have spent most of the past 15 years in comparable situations. MSU is up now, Purdue is down, and Iowa is way down.
spanky wrote:
Minnesota has better facilities. Northwestern is in better shape as a program right now.
Minnesota is a bad program. Purdue has outclassed them for pretty much my whole time as a fan. Even this year, Minnesota didn't really outperform Purdue, though they did dominate the matchup head to head.
spanky wrote:
I'd say the "blob" is more like Indiana, Illinois, and Purdue for sure. Maybe Minesota.
That is your opinion, but then again you started this thread thinking Purdue was a Big Ten doormat and you were proven wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:04 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Your last coach jumped to a worse program with a better resume.

Right. Which is what I initially said. Maybe you caught that when you re-read the thread again.

(Minnesota is not worse, and I'm not sure he had a "better" resume for a potential Big Ten hire)
Minnesota is a worse program, even with the new stadium. Purdue's facilities are actually fairly new. The stadium needs a major upgrade, and it will get one very soon.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Since 1997, the era which you say has proven that Purdue is better than the "blob", Minnesota has 44 conference wins. Purdue has 50.
A difference of......... (.4) wins per year. Totally distinguishes them from the blob school.


And Minnesota has better facilities, isn't 3rd fiddle in it's own state, going to a bowl game this year.........

Purdue, you are definitely in:
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:20 pm 
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The Interwebz is the perfect place to argue semantics.

I enjoy reading BRick's and Spanky's CFB thoughts. You both are right. Everyone wins!

Doeren would be an excellent hire. Seems ready for a Big Ten job. A business colleague does some work for the college football HOF. He has Big Ten ties and has great things to say about Doeren. Also said that if Doeren gets offered a Big Ten job, he'll go. That's all I have for backroom workings.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Minnesota is a worse program.


Of course it is. But I think you're wrong about Michigan State. I would consider them a notch above Purdue, Iowa, and, Illinois.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Minnesota is a worse program.


Of course it is. But I think you're wrong about Michigan State. I would consider them a notch above Purdue, Iowa, and, Illinois.

Why is Iowa not a better job than Purdue/Illinois/Minnesota, in your opinion?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:42 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Minnesota is a worse program.


Of course it is. But I think you're wrong about Michigan State. I would consider them a notch above Purdue, Iowa, and, Illinois.

Why is Iowa not a better job than Purdue/Illinois/Minnesota, in your opinion?


It's just a middle of the road Big Ten football program just like Illinois and Purdue, probably with less tradition. Minnesota is something less than that. We'd have to go back before WWII to find a time when Minnesota was consistently good. The modern passing game was developed at Purdue and Illinois has had great players that had huge impact on the game like Grange and Butkus. Tradition is an important element in college football.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Tradition is an important element in college football.

Iowa has been to 5 Rose Bowls and is 40th all-time in D-I wins, ahead of Illinois and Purdue, but behind Minnesota.

That's a random stat (all of those schools have more wins than the likes of Miami and FSU) but I'm not sure how else to measure"tradition" in CFB.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:55 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Tradition is an important element in college football.

Iowa has been to 5 Rose Bowls and is 40th all-time in D-I wins, ahead of Illinois and Purdue, but behind Minnesota.

That's a random stat (all of those schools have more wins than the likes of Miami and FSU) but I'm not sure how else to measure"tradition" in CFB.


Like I said, Minnesota may have had more success than any Big Ten team with the exception of Michigan and Ohio State, but it all happened a long time ago. I think you have to weigh that. The Cubs record isn't bad if you include the pre-WWII era. And I'm not suggesting that stuff doesn't count, just that recent performance should probably be given more weight.

If we go to the late 50s, Iowa is the strongest. Illinois' best days were under Zuppke. I don't think it's science. It's all just opinion. I consider Minnesota, Northwestern, and Indiana the bottom, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Purdue the middle, and Michigan and Ohio State the top. Obviously Northwestern is better than a bunch of those teams right now, but in my mind it takes time and consistency to move up.

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