Any chance for any of them?

Bonds should definitely get in and Roger probably should too. Sosa should never get it. He would have just been good without roids. Bonds was a HoF player before taking them. He may have hit 100 HR's in his prime if he had taken them.

No, but they should all be in.

It's silly to pretend like their careers never happened. Same with Pete Rose.

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I would say Rose is different. He broke a rule that is posted in every clubhouse. He knew exactly what he was doing and I truly believe he stiffed his own team at least on some occasions.

The drug thing was cultural. It wasn't even explicitly against the rules of baseball (although it was illegal). It was all wink-wink, nod-nod when Mark and Sammy were "saving" baseball. Then suddenly MLB dumped them in the grease as if Selig and his cronies were naive waifs in no way responsible for all of it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

This is the correct answer.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

The problem I have with that is that it's pure speculation. All of their careers were affected by drugs, or maybe they weren't. We'll never know.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So if the cheating was done to make a good player great, it's worse than cheating to make a great player one the best ever?

Either the cheating is enough to keep a player out or it's not.

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I agree with you about the Steroid Era but Rose broke a rule after he stopped playing. His achievements as a player should stand. He was a HoF player.

It's not that simple. Bonds was already one of the greatest ever. Most probably considered him the greatest of his generation. He was already a HoF player and was at back 9 of his career. Sosa was wasn't considered a great player and was in his prime when he started taking them. He sucked when he stopped too.

They should get in. I think a majority of players were on the sauce including pitchers so the playing field was pretty much even.

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"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

If you assume most players took roids or HGH, then shouldn't Sosa get in because he was still better than all of them. If he's one of the best roiders in a field of roiders, wouldn't it be conceivable that he would be one of the best non-roiders in a field of non-roiders?

By that logic, taking steroids shouldn't be enough to keep a player out of the Hall.

To me, it's either all cheating or none of it is.

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It's not that roids should keep you out. When looking at how a guy performed prior to roids and how he performed while he was on roids you can make a determination from there. Barry and Roger were HoFers before then. Sosa wasn't. Both were still good after they stopped but Sosa looked like Chone Figgins the last couple seasons.

If roids shouldn't keep a player out, then the only thing that should matter is the numbers.

Numbers say Sosa was one of the best hitters ever.

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I'm going by the eye test and numbers B.S. and A.S.

Bonds and Clemens never stopped. They just switched to HGH.

There is evidence that juicing was incidental and that the actual cause of increased offensive numbers was changes to the baseball.

To me, the point of keeping guys out is to punish them for what are now seen as transgressions against the game rather than to simply deny their greatness that was obvious on the field of play.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What year does everyone think the "steroid era" started? 1990? 1995?

these guys are dead to me.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I understand people that want to keep everyone out. I disagree, but I get it.

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Late 80's. They perfected the routines by the mid 90's. That's when the balloon brothers of the midwest took off. Does anyone remember Sosa showing up to spring training looking like something from a parade?

Here's an interesting read:

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Fine by me; +1.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Interesting read. I might counter with one small observation. Why did Sosa and Mcgwire exhibit huge jumps in power before Bonds if steroids didn't matter? It has long been reported that Bonds was jealous of the attention they got, and so he roided up and caught up. By that article's data, roids do not increase HR's. It was the inflated baseball. Reference:

Sosa 66 HR's in 98
McGwire 70 in 98
Bonds 37 in 98 (note Bonds jumped to 1 HR in 10 at bats the 2 subsequent years and then hit 73 in 2001 or over 1 in 10 at bats)

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Bonds had huge jumps in power back in 1990. A few years after McGwire and his roids burst on the scene. Similarly, Sosa's stats took a huge jump in 1993 after he came off a couple years of injuries.

Well, guys have good years and bad years. I think Walker is positing that based on the overall evidence, the changes to the ball were largely responsible for the sudden increases in power.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I am responding to that website. It said the jump in power coincided with changes in the ball, which seem to occur in 1995 through 2000. If that is the case, why did Bonds greatest power numbers come after Sosa's if steroids weren't a factor. Based on that website's theory, all players should have jumped together because the ball was the main cause. Bonds hit the 1-10 mark in 1999 and beyond, no sooner.

I don't buy it.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

JORR, then their power should have jumped in 1995. How about the guy from Philly that just got caught with PEDs, Ruiz, or the guys from San Fran, Melky? Funny how their great numbers coincide with getting caught with drugs.

I just don't buy that PEDs have no material impact.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

Put them all in, along with Pete Rose. Actually, put Rose in ahead of them.

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I don't know. But it's also difficult to believe that every player began juicing up in the same season and that 1987 was the apex, isn't it? I don't think the conclusion is that steroids or other PEDs have zero effect, but rather that their effect is much more minimal than widely believed.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don