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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:45 am 
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I'm not the kind of crackerjack legal mind you'd have to be to make it airtight, but you should need to have x amount of players accounted for on the premises, whether dressed or scratched. Having four players 100% unavailable by virtue of their being time zones away from the game affects the integrity of the game. Call up D-League bodies if you have to send people home, but you shouldn't be allowed to be that shorthanded. That's what I have a problem with more than the fact that it was Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, et al who weren't there.

I know it's different in hockey, because you have to use the whole buffalo in hockey in ways you never have to do in basketball, but there were a few games in recent NHL seasons wherein the Flames and Devils had to dress fewer than the required 20 players because of salary cap issues. 19 and 17 respectively, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure how it was ever addressed that breaking the cap rules superseded breaking the gameday roster rules, but it was a distinct disadvantage, and wasn't fair to the people buying tickets to the game, because essentially not having a fourth line as the Devils did those nights catches up with your legs and yields a poorer product. YES I KNOW THE GAME WAS CLOSE THIS TIME, but you shouldn't be allowed to sabotage yourself so blatantly. There has to be some greater good spoken for here.

newper wrote:
Well there is a slippery slope... when does the fining stop?

Pop brings the players to the game, but they don't dress and sit on the bench
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, but never play.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, but don't start, and only play 5 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 10 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 20 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 30 minutes a piece.


You left out the key part of the "slippery slope" phrase, which is that it is a fallacy. Anyone who thinks that playing only 30 minutes could yield disciplinary action is either coloring outside the rhetorical lines or a pure idiot.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:27 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
newper wrote:
Well there is a slippery slope... when does the fining stop?

Pop brings the players to the game, but they don't dress and sit on the bench
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, but never play.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, but don't start, and only play 5 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 10 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 20 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 30 minutes a piece.


You left out the key part of the "slippery slope" phrase, which is that it is a fallacy. Anyone who thinks that playing only 30 minutes could yield disciplinary action is either coloring outside the rhetorical lines or a pure idiot.

OK, yes we can agree on that. So that much is OK... what about the one before that? Somewhere there the "line" starts of what is considered OK. That line needs to be documented and the proposed disciplinary actions as well. You can even make it a little vague if you want, but as far as I know, there is no rule written down to guide a coach as to what he can and can't do. There's no harm in writing a rule like this -- but, as we've seen, there's harm with the rule not being written yet still being enforced.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:43 am 
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newper wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
People are going so slippery-slope fallacy on this thing, there should be Hanna-Barbera bongo drums playing as people's feet flail around and they yell "whoOooOOooOOOooAaaaAAaaAAA!!" No, Dan Bernstein, this business with the Spurs does not mean that coaches will get calls from David Stern when they sit their starters for rest/foul trouble in the third quarter. In fact, they probably won't even be scolded for DNPing one veteran starter, or perhaps two. Maybe it just won't be too much to ask that coaches not put 80% of a starting lineup a thousand miles away.

Well there is a slippery slope... when does the fining stop?

Pop brings the players to the game, but they don't dress and sit on the bench
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, but never play.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, but don't start, and only play 5 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 10 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 20 minutes a piece.
Pop brings the players to the game, they dress and do warmups, start, and only play 30 minutes a piece.

What's the line? What's the rule? He needs to come out and say what the rule is. You can't go fining teams $250K because you feel like it. There has to be some rule that was violated and some guideline as to what that rule is.


Does there really need to be a rule though? How about a little common sense. These guys all make their money from television broadcasts. Does he really need to be told that he shouldn't sit his starters for the entire game during a national broadcast against the Heat?

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:58 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

What's the line? What's the rule? He needs to come out and say what the rule is. You can't go fining teams $250K because you feel like it. There has to be some rule that was violated and some guideline as to what that rule is.


Does there really need to be a rule though? How about a little common sense. These guys all make their money from television broadcasts. Does he really need to be told that he shouldn't sit his starters for the entire game during a national broadcast against the Heat?[/quote]
Yes, I think there does. We obviously have seen on this very board a disagreement about what is common sense on what a coach is allowed to do or not do. Why not just clarify what the position of the league is. At this point, they basically have by setting a precedent, but they need to establish some sort of guideline as to what you can be penalized for. Even if the guideline is something like "if you are resting any regular starter who is non-injured, call the league office for approval" would be something for coaches to base decisions off of.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:02 am 
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newper wrote:
Yes, I think there does. We obviously have seen on this very board a disagreement about what is common sense on what a coach is allowed to do or not do. Why not just clarify what the position of the league is. At this point, they basically have by setting a precedent, but they need to establish some sort of guideline as to what you can be penalized for. Even if the guideline is something like "if you are resting any regular starter who is non-injured, call the league office for approval" would be something for coaches to base decisions off of.


I just don't think this happens with enough regularity to worry about it. Popovich knew exactly what he was doing and he knew there would be heat for it. He had to. It seems to me like he was giving a "fuck you" to the league for scheduling him four games in five days. I'll show them.

I would compare it to Repole refusing to race in the Breeder's Cup because he didn't like the rules. The difference being that nobody has the power to reprimand Repole for his short-sighted and selfish actions in a sport that is rapidly dying. I'm sure David Stern doesn't want the NBA to end up like horse racing on his watch.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:04 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm sure David Stern doesn't want the NBA to end up like horse racing on his watch.

It already is with all those big black studs running around.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:05 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm sure David Stern doesn't want the NBA to end up like horse racing on his watch.

It already is with all those big black studs running around.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:38 pm 
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I think Stern went on a power trip and made up his own rules. I will be interested to see what type of appeal can be made on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Keeping Score wrote:
Quote:
Cuban said where the Spurs went wrong is not bringing their marquee players to a game that was shown on TNT. If the Spurs had done the same thing in a game not played on national TV, Cuban said they likely would not have been issued a fine. "Everybody who planned to watch San Antonio vs. Miami on TNT, we've got disappointed customers all over the place," Cuban said before Saturday's Mavericks home game against Detroit. "When I say our biggest customer, TV is our biggest customer. "So I'm not saying San Antonio did the wrong thing. I'm just saying I understand exactly why the league did what they did."


That's how I see it too. And I think Popovich picked the TV game on purpose to make his point. He was angry about two back to backs within five days culminating with the mighty Heat. He showed Stern and the fans who is in charge, didn't he?

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:05 pm 
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There is a precedent for this.


In 1990 The Lakers were fined for sitting Magic and Worthy in the regular season finale.

How has that not been mentioned?


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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:19 pm 
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And not to do it again, but the Red Wings got in trouble for holding Datsyuk and Zetterberg out of an All-Star Game without injury. I think they were suspended a game.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:19 am 
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Everyone knows that all coaches are supposed to subtly treat the NBA regular season as meaningless. NBA fans aren't smart enough to figure it out otherwise as they were ecstatic for the meaningless Spurs-Heat matchup that day.

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 Post subject: Re: David Stern
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:35 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
There is a precedent for this.


In 1990 The Lakers were fined for sitting Magic and Worthy in the regular season finale.

How has that not been mentioned?

And then Magic got HIV a year later. Maybe he could have used a little more rest, and he wouldn't gotten that bug.

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