Forgot LaMarcus for Tyrus. Worst moment of Pax's GM career.

Hiring Vinny was bad, but it didn't exactly set the franchise back significantly, and the Thibs hire more than makes up for it.

The Ben Wallace signing wasn't good, but many thought it was an excellent move at the time. Any time a GM is in charge for a decade he's going to have some embarrassing transactions in hindsight.

Pax took over a team that had been rebuilding for 4-5 years and going nowhere. He quickly turned them into a solid playoff team capable of sweeping the defending champs in 2007. Then he got his franchise star in the draft and since then had had a team that probably has a better record when Rose plays than any other team in the league since then.

There's really no case to make that Pax is a bad GM. The worst you can go is above average. There aren't anywhere close to 15 better ones.

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Oh great one when does Forman take them to the promise land Paxson ain't a GM !

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

I dont follow it close enough to rank him but those are bad moves and I give him no credit for Rose

The drafting of solid players is good but gonna need another star soon

Giving him zero credit for Rose is just silly when one of the best basketball minds on this board and like 50% of pundits thought Beasley was better. There was a legitimate choice there, and he made the best one. And the consequences for being wrong would've been enormous.

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To rock my soul

50%?

I think that's exaggerating

Rose was the pick going into the year then Beasley put up some numbers and some considered Beasley


I dint think it was 50% though.

If it wasn't 50, it was damn close. It was pretty close to an even split on who preferred Rose or Beasley.

Also on ranking him, how can you hate him if you don't even have a frame of reference for how good he is in comparison to his peers?

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I have no idea what B&B were saying about Hill. If they're saying he's better than any HOF'er over the course of his career then I'd also say they don't know what they're talking about. In a different thread, I argued that since Hill was already putting up Lebron-esque numbers during his first six years, he would have gone on to become a better player than a guy like Pippen by the time his career was over. In response some posters said Pippen's numbers suffered due to having Jordan on his team while Hill had no other star player with whom to share the ball. That's a reasonable response, but I still would say Hills' skill set (handles, shooting, moves) was just better. I would take a pre-surgery Hill over Pippen, despite the latter's stature as one of the best perimeter defenders ever. Hill was a good defender later in his career, and a superior offensive threat before his surgery.

If B&B are touting Hill based on the entirety of his career, then I'd join you all in strongly disagreeing.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I don't hate him but I am frustrated at how he falls in love with role players and guys who are 3rd option on title teams


I dont remember it being 50/50 or close. There were enough questions on Beasley that most thought Rise was thee pick

Also I try to imagine what this team would look like without the incredible luck of getting Rose. I know there's a million what ifs but I dint think they'd be good

It's literally impossible to have an idea what the team would look like today. Every move that has followed was based on Rose. I think it would look a lot like the Indiana team though.

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I'm totally with you on this.

FavreFan: Also, who liked the Wallace signing? At the time I thought it was the dumbest thing. They needed offense, which is precisely what Wallace doesn't do. I thought the same when he signed Hamilton for different reasons.

I don't want Paxson to shape the team in his image. His image sucks. He was a no-talent backup guard who only thrived because no one had to respect his game. He only got open looks because his team had three other all-stars that defenses had to worry about. We don't need a team of players whose best assets are "trying hard." I hated Pax's try hard philosophy in the mid-2000s. He did change the culture with the hiring of Skiles, set it back by hiring Vinny (?), then righted the ship with the hiring of Thibs. We'll see what he does next, but the record is mixed.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I said one of the best. Not THE best. Reading is a skill.

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His record isn't really mixed though, because the results are excellent. This team is in 10x better shape than it was when he took over. Even without Rose, the team would still have two all stars and be in much better shape than when he took over.

Like I said before, any way you slice it, the totality of his tenure as GM has seen the Bulls go from a perennial doormat to a team that had the best record in the league two years in a row before their MVP got hurt for this past season.

Hiring Thibs was underrated too. He was there for any team to grab, and the Bulls got it. Whether you wanna credit Noah more or Thibs more for the defense, the credit also equally goes to Paxson.

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Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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I don't remember it being close to 50/50, either. About the only media person I can remember really wanting Beasley over Rose was Teinowitz.

After some missteps (Del Negro) and bizarre FA signings, sure, they're in a better place. He still has to answer for Boozer, however, and for putting himself position to do nothing when Asik walked out the door.

How about this: Since the star is in place, he has to squeeze everything he can out of Rose for the duration of his career, i.e. win a ring or two, for me to say he's been a successful GM. is that fair? LA got their stars and rode them to five rings. Riley got his and we're at one ring and counting. And so on. Is that a fair enough criterion to judge Pax, or GarPax?

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Thx

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I think it's fair to say he's already had a successful tenure. If they win a title, which I believe they will soon, then I think it's been a great tenure. Riley had one good summer and because of how great LeBron is and Wade is/was, that's all he needed. The Bulls team requires much more work and due diligence to be put together. Mitch Kupchak inherited Kobe but he did do a solid job after a rough start. Jerry West won those first three.

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Oh and if he has to answer for Boozer, than Riley has to answer for Bosh.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Bosh isn't on a hot streak presently, to be kind, but in a vacuum there's no comparison between the two. The Toronto Bosh demolishes any version of Boozer. Even with three weird years in Miami, I bet a 28 year old former 22 and 11 guy has more trade value than Boozer.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Well he did target those guys. Also, he did get Shaq and won a title with him and Wade. He acquires stars and wins. Under him they've got four Finals appearances. By the way, it's painful to think about Wade sometimes because I understand the Bulls were going to pick him at no. 7.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

He probably does, but the Toronto Bosh is irrelevant when discussing the value Bosh has brought to the Heat. The idea of Bosh being in a 3 year slump is funny though.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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Even if Bosh has been...inconsistent, what's there to argue with when his team hasn't missed the Finals since Riley brought them all together? That's the truth of the matter. For all the Heat's faults and whatever, there's no disputing their three year run of dominance. Bosh is a part of that, as well.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Bosh makes a lot more than Boozer and has given Miami Boozer type production. I never argued Miami hasn't been dominant against a really weak East, but if the Heat had gotten Boozer instead nothing in the past three years changes.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't remember one person who liked the Wallace signing. If I had to guess 95% of people wanted rose. Pax is a bad g.m.

_________________

They were going to pick Wade and then got outmanuvered by Riley who moved up to take him

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

The Wallace signing was lauded by many

The Bulls finally had a "man"

It was also cheered by Pistons fans, as well, but for different reasons.

Yes.

There were detractors, but Id say more Bulls fans were happy with the signing than upset. Wallace was the "prize" in FA that year

I'm not sure why he'd be considered as the "man," even back then. He was a 32 year old declining center at the time, who was utterly useless on the side of the ball that the Bulls needed the most help.

They also traded Chandler to make room for Wallace, and received virtually nothing in return. You can see Paxson's entire transaction history here: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/john_paxson.htm

Now Chandler did need a change of scenery, but it's dumb to receive nothing in return for a 24 year old seven-footer with promise. Some may say you get Wallace in return for Chandler, but then when was it ever a good idea to trade a younger, taller version of Wallace for the actual Wallace himself? And at 32 years old? The move never made sense on any level. Wallace wasn't going to help the Bulls score, and it didn't make sense to trade a valuable asset (who doesn't love young and tall?) for a declining, undersized center with no trade value.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

No not THE MAN, A MAN

Many saw the Bulls as wet behind the ears kids and now they were getting a playoff tested MAN


I also think you went a little overboard in your assessment of John Paxson as a player. He was a fine starting guard.

I thought about that too. I think that's just my frustration. I wanted him to aim high during those years, but the talk was he thought his beloved core (Deng-Hinrich-Gordon-Wallace/Chandler) could truly do some damage in the East. I was never a believer and resented him for what I thought was a failing blueprint.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY