Ford is easily in the top 20 and better than Gibson. Lower ERA.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No, He can't be. Not using your own logic. Gibson has more wins.

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More trolling, Frank. I've never said a word about the accumulation of wins. Very few guys have a higher winning percentage than Whitey Ford. That's why Hatchetman brought him up.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Gibson pitched a lot more innings. Similar stats. I'd say its a toss up. OK, so both are top 30.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

If Chris Sale was traded to the Red Sox today... do you think he would have a similar w/l record the rest of the way out?

I'm pretty sure neither of those guys ever shit out a double.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Yankess of the 50s > Cardinals of the 60s/70s

Gibson was on a worse team and STILL had more wins! There is no way Ford was better.

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Can't wait until we finally embrace statistics and award the World Series trophy to the team with the best WAR and not the one that wins 4 games in the series. I can't believe in 2013 we're still using the flawed and imperfect statistic of so called "wins" to determine the champion.

Yeah thats cute and all, but its not my point.

A starting pitcher CAN have a good/great season with a sub .500 record. Joe Orr would tell you thats impossible, but stats and everybody else says he's wrong.

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Wasn't really referring to you.

I see.

You now have a higher ThreadWar than I do.

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I have no idea. I expect he will have a better record wiith the White Sox the rest of the way out.

But let me ask you this, in 1972 Steve Carlton was 27-10 with a terrible team. If he had played for the A's that year do you think it was a certainty that he would have won 30 decisions? I don't. He may have been worse.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

JORR, simple question

How do you explain you being right and virtually everyone paid to analyze the game is wrong?

No, everybody else doesn't say that. And even if they did, I doubt they'd elect you as their spokesman.

If you're under .500 you didn't have a good year. It doesn't mean you didn't pitch well. It just wasn't a good year.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It's not "virtually everyone". Most guys that played the game in the past will tell you they got beat when they got beat. This "Tipping my hat. I was still good. He was better." is a modern viewpoint from people who grew up receiving last place trophies.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I dont think they would go quite so far as you do

You seem to have no use for ERA and WHIP. Just look at W-L and you're good?

I mean, doesnt your whole opinion here mean E.R.A. and WHIP are meaningless?

Notice, no qualifiers.

So Eric Gagne did not have a good 2003. Maybe the writers voted him as the Cy Young award winner just to spite you.

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I think anytime a pitcher goes to a better team, he has a better chance of winning more games. External factors could change it, blisters, injuries, etc.


I get your point, and I'm not suggesting it's a given he would win more. Many other external factors. Plenty of pitchers have been good on shitty teams, traded before the break, and have sucked for the newer better team. That's different. What we are doing is not looking forward, but looking back. If Sale pitched exactly as he had, but with more run support... that would change his record. It just would.

Frank is isolating Sale's performance. I know that's not how it is in the real world, but for purposes of evaluating his value compared to others, it is the best way to do it. Defense, run support, ballpark, etc make it impossible to truly compare. You know that.

Here is the crux of the argument. Defining "pitching well" vs "having a good year." For me, pitching well is what should define if a single player had a good year. Isolating that player, when trying to define his value, makes more sense than leaving in the external factors he has no control over (ballpark, hitting, etc).

Joe Orr must think the best pitchers ever are position players Wilson Valdez and Brent Mayne because their career win% is 1.000

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I doubt it. Was thinking of a replacement level thread to test it's value, but it was funnier in my head than when I previewed it.

I was mostly in agreement with you but this is ridiculous. Stephen Strasburg has given up more than 2 earn runs in 4 of his 17 starts and has a 2.43 ERA and a 1.06 WHIP but he currently has a losing record. If this trend continues the rest of the way you are willing to say he didn't have a great season pitching? If so that is crazy and probably worse than any complaint about WAR.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

In the past he has clarified the position is only for Starters

Its still asinine.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/grading-ji ... 00158.html

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But someone in those same games is allowing even less runs. And they're doing it vs. the Washington juggernaut! But I wouldn't expect the trend to continue. I don't think Sale and Strasburg are the type of pitchers that I would call "losers" or "mediocre". We're talking about a tiny sample, really.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I've got some work to do right now. If I'm in the mood later I'll give you a breakdown on the way I view pitching and baseball and why.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Completely agree with you on Sale too. I used Strasburg because I thought he was a better example. It doesn't matter how great you are if your offense doesn't support you. You can no give up any runs and still take a ND. Ask Harvey too.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Hey, there's an idea!

Not really. The guys with good winning percentages generally have good ERA and WHIP. Yeah, you can find an occasional Aaron Sele. But the real difference seems to be that I see the W/L record as the lead stat and the other things as incidentals and the fashion is to see it the other way around, that's all.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don