He did not pitch very well today. But he still got the win.

If Joe Orr is going to say "Sale has not had a very good year" by looking only at his W-L record to date, then he can't look at Sale's entire line from today's game to say if he pitched poorly or not.

Sale gets the Win, thats all that matters in the book of Joe Orr.

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You're not really that obtuse, are you, Frank? Sometimes your ancillary numbers are good and you lose, sometimes they're bad and you win. What's so hard to understand about that? Over a large enough sample that's going to smooth out. I don't hear you deriding batting average just because a guy hit four "hangwoof'ems".

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't think Frank is obtuse. He said he was just a few pounds over for his height in the other thread.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

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It's not a given that it will even out in a season... Certainly not in half a season and yet you are making conclusions about how he pitched so far anyway.

17 games, 3 that were no decisions, and 1 admitted win when he didn't pitch well... Yet, here we are on page whatever debating something that you all of a sudden are changing your tone on.

Actually, I'm the only one that's been consistent throughout the thread. I've said over and over again that Sale isn't the test case for a guy who pitches well enough to lose. His career percentage is close to .600 for God's sake! But one need not "make conclusions" about the results of his pitching this year. He's 6-8. Not good.

I understand what you're saying. We just have a different philosophy. I consider a 5.08 ERA and 19-5 record better than a 2.78 ERA and a 10-15 record. I've explained time and time again why I feel that way. ERA is subject to conditions. You are treating Mike Hampton in Colorado the same as Orel Hershiser in LA. Not scientific. Not scientific at all. But when they go against each other in the same park with the same plate umpire and two teams that likely have offenses that are really not much different within the tiny space of a single game, there is a winner and a loser or a no decision or two.

I realize why you disagree. That's fine. But let's not pretend that it's science and when I point out the '95 Cubs have a more powerful offense than the '95 Braves, thus Maddux should have been expected to win more as a Cub, try to change the argument and steer it away from a "run support" issue.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I realize you may have misunderstood my post about Sale's game today. What I meant was he wasn't good at all the things you value today. And yet, he found a way to outpitch Anibal Sanchez, a guy who had a lower ERA entering the game and was also supported by a far superior offense.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

W/L is a useful evaluation stat over a career, but not indicative of performance over an individual season.

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Just like every other stat. Baseball is a game of time and repetition. Anyone can have bad luck. But sometimes you have good luck. If Viciedo doesn't nail that guy at the plate, the whole game may be different. I understand the desire to boil the game down to separate components and examine what each man can "control". I wouldn't use the word "control" myself. I prefer to use the word "affect". Because whatever you're trying to do, there's a guy on the other side trying to stop you from doing it or trying to do something else. Neither one has "control" but they each have an "effect".

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It's top heavy with guys who have pitcher-friendly home parks.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

WHIP doesn't include HRs which are huge.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Is that how you arrived at the idea that Nolan Ryan was one of the top ten pitchers of all time? Because he's 274th on the all-time list, a couple decimal points ahead of the great Javy Vazquez.

You're an idiot. I rest my case.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I think JORR gave his response.

Yea JORR, to be fair he made a good point in whip, you came back with something that he showed certainly isn't anywhere close to true this year. Seems like he earned a real response there.

Thats what people have been asking you for 25 pages now. You take a pitcher with a sub .500 record and say that he is "not having a very good year."

Not only is it factually in correct with regards to Chris Sale, who's ancillary numbers overall have been outstanding, its just flat out stupid to speak in such absolutes without taking a look at the rest of his stats to see exactly what kind of year the pitcher has had/is having.

Would you automatically assume that a guy who hit .204 had a bad year?

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Yeah, I already gave my response. But don't kid yourself that you did some "stat research". You grabbed home and away splits for the top guys. So what? Citi, Detroit, Washington, LA, and Seattle are all parks that favor pitchers. Wrigley has largely played neutral for a long time. And don't rush off to the MLB site and come back here to bludgeon me with this year's runs. Those annual factors are subject to the teams playing there. That's why U.S. Cellular, which is known to be extremely hitter-friendly, is so far down the list.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't give a fuck about his ancillary stats. I'm not trying to evaluate Chris Sale to sign him to a contract or make a trade involving him. He has a W/L record you have admitted isn't good. That means he isn't having a good year. His WHIP isn't helping me or his team. That's what's meaningless. But I'm glad he's helping you lead a roto category.

A guy who hit .204 would have to do a lot of other shit to overcome it. And frankly, I wouldn't want the best .204 hitter in the game on my team. In fact, I think he's there now and most fans would love for him to be gone.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There are more ways to calculate park factors than there are to calculate WAR. Whichever one you're looking at certainly has the opponents figured in somehow.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You sure as fuck did about Sale's game yesterday. So you only care about the numbers when they make your point of view look good.

That is a typical Joe Orr answer that does not actually answer the question at hand. I never said anything about the fans or how he was in comparison to the rest of the league. I asked you a simple yes or no question, and you dodged it. Again.

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Do we all agree that luck evens out over a career


There are no bad luck careers

I think I just read that the Cubs lead in extra base hits.


JORR, that's sort of a thought I had last night. If you're saying it's not relevant moving forward, it's not relevant to really nailing down his value and it's not relevant because you're not in charge of transactions... when is it relevant? It kind of isn't. I think the only answer may be arbitrary internet message board arguments about stuff that really doesn't matter. Which is ok, that's why we are here. But it also should be taken a lot less seriously than all of the other things listed.

I don't look at the game that way. He could get hurt tomorrow. I'm only interested in what a guy might do going forward in that it may help the team I root for. I don't really take any of it seriously at all. It's just baseball.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Disagree. Nick Adenhart.

No, Frank. Sale pitched a good game yesterday. Apparently not according to you.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Mean but funny.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Ok, Joe Orr Wind Sock. Which one is it? Did he pitch good or not?

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Are you following the thread? Or are you getting yourself so worked up into a typical Frank-frenzy to make ad hominem attacks against me that you missed this?:

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

See above. I expect such nonsense from Frank. Not from you.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Another yes or no question you haven't answered yet. Did Sale pitch a good game yesterday?

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