I haven't voted because right now the deals are equal. They each gave away a big league pitcher for nothing. At least for the time being.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. I believe the best way to win at least one World Series is with that method.

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I'm just not sure why you think that though. That's not how most of them are won.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Some guys (not SomeGuy) would have you believe the Rays have been a better organization than the White Sox over the past 10 years.

Luckily we know better.

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I guess what bothers me about TheoandJed is that to me they come off like kids playing fantasy baseball. I don't think it's a bad idea to build a strong organization. But the fetishization of prospects at the expense of the big league club is a bit much. Every team drafts and every team tries to assemble the best guys they can. It isn't something only these guys are doing. The Dodgers and Braves regularly produce guys out of their farm systems. But it's just in the course of business. It doesn't seem like anyone is bending over to pat those GMs on the back as if they just invented the wheel. If the draft is your Super Bowl, you're doing something wrong.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

What do you think of the Cardinals and Giants? I'd say they are a pretty good model for what I'm talking about. Most of the core players were developed. The Cardinals system was good enough to allow Albert Pujols to leave.

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I would love to be the Braves. They have a chance every year it seems. Good mix of acquired and developed talent. The Dodgers though are going to make the hatred of the Yankees seem tame once they attempt to buy every single possible player with that huge ass tv contract they have.

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That's my purse! I don't know you!

Jealousy masked as hatred.

I know it well.

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Very astute as usual.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

The problem with the Rays is they never add payroll. If they had money to retain their guys, and add FA's, it would be an outstanding model. A team that sticks to the Rays model, and adds payroll when appropriate, will be very successful.

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Well, the Cardinals have always been a good organization. They invented the farm system. But even they only have three homegrown guys you would call "core" players in the starting lineup. Kozma is a guy they want to replace if they can. They have three starting pitchers. Yeah, I'll give you the Cardinals as something to model. I just question whether they'll be able to do that.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

_________________

They have to add the right players and Theo and Co's recent history on that front is not very good. It's easy to make a bad team good. It's very difficult to make a good team great.

I'll go even further, and it certainly isn't the Cubs "conning" me. I don't want a thing to do with the top free agents in this class. I'm not giving Robinson Cano 8/170. Ellsbury is the wrong type of player to give a contract. He's going to be thirty and he relies on speed. He's also been injured quite often. Shin Soo-Choo I would think about. Brian McCann? Tim Lincecum? I don't want to give any of these guys money.

Who are the guys that do want these players? The same guys that will be complaining in week two, claiming the player is an overpaid bum. Oh, and management is filled with idiots that need to be fired.

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I agree with all of this post.

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Right, but you probably wouldn't have wanted Holliday or Beltran either and they are as responsible for the Cardinal power as any of the homegrown guys. You can't really have it both ways. I'm not making $4 million to decide who to get. I have no idea. And I don't think anyone at CSFMB has any idea. And I don't even think most guys making those millions to do the job have much of an idea. But at some point every team has to get guys that they didn't draft.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Actually, I liked those moves. Holliday was acquired with prospects that a great organization collects. Most will crap out to your point. The Cardinals used three of them, and they got him at 29 instead of 31. Beltran was a steal with some risk at 2/26.

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But that's why there's a "smoke and mirrors" aspect to it. None of those guys were "great prospects". They're all busted out already. Did Beane get the great young guys for Holliday? Or did he give away a real major leaguer for nothing? And that right there is what makes a good organization. Knowing which guys to keep and which ones to move. It's not just about collecting prospects and telling your fans you're going to win at some future undisclosed date. At what point do you think the Cubs are supposed to put a respectable team out there? Next season? The one after that? 2020?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That's untrue. Wallace was a very highly regarded prospect. The issue was he was a great hitter without a position. Perfect for an AL team.

Fortunately for the Cardinals his career went the way of other highly regarded offensive players like Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta.

He was perceived as a great prospect. Probably because he was a Cardinal.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Agree with pretty much everything Drop In has said.

JORR, it seems like most of your passion about this has a root in the whole going to games aspect and season ticket holders deserve a good product.

I just wonder how you would feel if that part was removed.


I think the media's reaction gets mixed in with Cub fans and its unfair. Among your thoughts on this there's usually something like "they might not be successful" or "there are no guarentees"


well of course not. Just being on board with a plan or supporting it doesnt mean it guarentees success.

If that part were removed it would be just like football.

You know I go to a lot of games. There are certainly guys who go to more. But that's a commitment of time and money. If nobody shows up live, the game will fold. As I've said before to Rick, maybe football could operate as a studio game with no stands at all and just TV coverage. I'm sure baseball could not.

Anyway, my perspective is that of the guy actually spending his time and money to watch the team. I won't say "support", because I don't do it to support anyone. I do it because I enjoy it. A season like this one is to be expected once in awhile. But I damn sure ain't gonna spend big league money to watch a minor league quality team. It just seems like those people who support a "full-on rebuild" are those who never go to games anyway. They can turn off the TV and come back when the team is good.

And part of this is the economics of baseball. They've driven the prices so high, it's something you actually have to consider. It's not like when I was a kid where you drop a couple bucks and have a nice afternoon in the sunshine and it'll be nice if the home team wins. "Root, root, root for the home team." The players and owners have created the situation and they're rich and now they have to live with the consequences. Those being that they need to draw 2 million fans just to stay close to even. And that's tough to do with a horseshit team out there. The Cubs have Wrigley which helps but a lot of people don't have the sense to recognize that brute fact.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The team is shitty and the Cubs are selling a shit-ton less tickets than during the Hendry era and making a lot less money. It's exactly as you would expect.

But they're still the most profitable team in baseball. Attendance is down all over.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So what's the issue?

They feel like like they are preparing themselves the best way they can for the future, and they are still making money.


You can disagree with their method, but THEY believe it. This isn't a con. As long as I, as a fan, believe THEY believe in what they are doing, it's not a con. I'm not delusional in thinking that this is a sure-fire win. I don't think anyone is. They could be doing this the "right way" and it won't result in a World Series. It's not easy, and no one is suggesting it's a foregone conclusion.


I guess I don't see the issue here. I never have. You can disagree with their methodology and predict it won't work. The odds are in your favor. Every single team except 1 loses every year.

The con is in the idea that the restaurant has to feed you food that will get you sick for four years so one day they can serve you a gourmet dinner. I just don't believe that. And I'm not suggesting what the Cubs are doing isn't the smartest thing for Joe Ricketts' pocketbook. But my interests aren't his. And neither are yours.

Frankly, I don't care what the Cubs do. My issue is when I have to hear and read that this way is "the right way". And that the team that I buy tickets to watch every year should do something similar. It may be the right way for the Cubs. They have a lot of fans that come each summer to enjoy a truly old ballpark and the actually quality of baseball is immaterial to them. That's a luxury few teams have and it's allowing Wrigley not to look like the ballpark in Miami with all those empty seats or the one eight miles south that is likely to be nearly empty the rest of the way out.

Incidentally, I heard this on the Score's Business Report yesterday and I found it somewhat odd. The Sox have sold more team license plates than the Cubs. I don't take that as evidence of anything really, but it's always been a foregone conclusion that the Cubs "have more fans than the Sox". I'm not sure that's true. They have more people that go to games.*


* Before redskingreg chimes in: Fans go to games, but one needn't be a fan to attend. Lots of people come to Addison and Clark to see that building. Just yesterday morning I saw three guys photographing it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You don't know this. Financial statements in professional sports are extremely dubious.

I mean, the Blackhawks haven't turned a profit in years!

That's a fair point. But in any case, the Cubs are highly profitable. Probably more than they show.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Don't buy tickets. No one is making people keep or buy tickets. To be honest, after years on the waiting list, I finally came due to get season tickets the year Theo started. I passed, because I didn't think it would be worth it. And I like Theo.

You need to keep your argument to "it's the wrong method if they want to win." No one can dispute that. But you're trying to take it further, and I'm losing you.

I don't know if it's the "wrong method if they want to win". They may win and they may not. Just like the Sox won doing what they did in 2005 and they lost in 2007 doing the same thing and they had respectable teams in other years.

But that "don't buy tickets" thing doesn't fly. That's what makes the mare go. You want someone else to buy tickets. And don't say you don't, because if no one else did the Cubs cease to exist.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don