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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Technically Wilson's success, for example, has nothing to do with how a rookie QB will do. The rookie may or not be good, but that's independent of Wilson's experience, or even his existence. One does not need to happen in order to have the other happen.
I don't know what you are saying here. It's simply evidence of how college players are more prepared than ever. It's a pretty obvious point that Wilson won't physically affect the performance of a rookie.
veganfan21 wrote:
I never implied or stated that, since we don't know how a new QB will do, let's sign Cutler to avoid drafting a dud. I did say, however, that it'd be ideal to hold on to Cutler for the time being while drafting another, only because we know Cutler's "floor," and that would be good insurance should the new QB turn out to be a bust.
You seem very concerned that the next QB will be a bust and you seem to be arguing you shouldn't take the risk even when many other organizations have done it to success. If you are that averse to the risk then just sign Cutler for 5 years and be pretty sure he won't suck.
veganfan21 wrote:
The risk of drafting someone, as you know, is him turning out to be a bust, but given that the Bears have a "win now" offense, it makes more sense to avoid that risk by simply holding on to a known commodity while grooming a prospect. Going the other way, I would have no problems drafting a rookie and saying goodbye to Cutler if the Bears were tearing the whole thing down. But they're not, so that changes the calculus a bit.
Unless something happens that changes things, the Bears are far from "win now" mode, especially with a new coach and a new GM. I think we'll be looking back at the end of the year wishing the rebuilding would have started sooner rather than wanting to extend the "win now" mode another year.


This is akin to the White Sox. Rebuilding needing to start years ago but idiot Kenny kept staying in "win now" mode which proved to be completely and utterly stupid. Bears need to rebuild now and pick the best QB they can in the draft. That would be helped by tanking the remainder of the season.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Rick, we're talking about franchising Cutler for next year and then seeing what happens on the field. Nobody talked about singing him to a 5 or 7 year deal without seeing the on field results. You jumped to that conclusion all on your own.

How were the Bears not in "win now" mode coming into the year? They revamped their entire left side of the Oline with free agents. They used the franchise tag to keep a pro bowl defense end here. They went and got a proven, pass catching tight end. They got the best FA middle linebacker on the market after Urlacher declined to come back. Those moves all seem to suggest that the Bears were in "win now" mode coming into this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Country Bumpkin wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Technically Wilson's success, for example, has nothing to do with how a rookie QB will do. The rookie may or not be good, but that's independent of Wilson's experience, or even his existence. One does not need to happen in order to have the other happen.
I don't know what you are saying here. It's simply evidence of how college players are more prepared than ever. It's a pretty obvious point that Wilson won't physically affect the performance of a rookie.
veganfan21 wrote:
I never implied or stated that, since we don't know how a new QB will do, let's sign Cutler to avoid drafting a dud. I did say, however, that it'd be ideal to hold on to Cutler for the time being while drafting another, only because we know Cutler's "floor," and that would be good insurance should the new QB turn out to be a bust.
You seem very concerned that the next QB will be a bust and you seem to be arguing you shouldn't take the risk even when many other organizations have done it to success. If you are that averse to the risk then just sign Cutler for 5 years and be pretty sure he won't suck.
veganfan21 wrote:
The risk of drafting someone, as you know, is him turning out to be a bust, but given that the Bears have a "win now" offense, it makes more sense to avoid that risk by simply holding on to a known commodity while grooming a prospect. Going the other way, I would have no problems drafting a rookie and saying goodbye to Cutler if the Bears were tearing the whole thing down. But they're not, so that changes the calculus a bit.
Unless something happens that changes things, the Bears are far from "win now" mode, especially with a new coach and a new GM. I think we'll be looking back at the end of the year wishing the rebuilding would have started sooner rather than wanting to extend the "win now" mode another year.


This is akin to the White Sox. Rebuilding needing to start years ago but idiot Kenny kept staying in "win now" mode which proved to be completely and utterly stupid. Bears need to rebuild now and pick the best QB they can in the draft. That would be helped by tanking the remainder of the season.


I said the Bears' offense is in "win-now" mode, and not the whole team. I still maintain that it would be reckless to tear down the offense after finally modernizing at a conceptual and personnel level. As Dr. Ken said, in the NFL you can win even if you're not completely set on one side of the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:47 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Country Bumpkin wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Technically Wilson's success, for example, has nothing to do with how a rookie QB will do. The rookie may or not be good, but that's independent of Wilson's experience, or even his existence. One does not need to happen in order to have the other happen.
I don't know what you are saying here. It's simply evidence of how college players are more prepared than ever. It's a pretty obvious point that Wilson won't physically affect the performance of a rookie.
veganfan21 wrote:
I never implied or stated that, since we don't know how a new QB will do, let's sign Cutler to avoid drafting a dud. I did say, however, that it'd be ideal to hold on to Cutler for the time being while drafting another, only because we know Cutler's "floor," and that would be good insurance should the new QB turn out to be a bust.
You seem very concerned that the next QB will be a bust and you seem to be arguing you shouldn't take the risk even when many other organizations have done it to success. If you are that averse to the risk then just sign Cutler for 5 years and be pretty sure he won't suck.
veganfan21 wrote:
The risk of drafting someone, as you know, is him turning out to be a bust, but given that the Bears have a "win now" offense, it makes more sense to avoid that risk by simply holding on to a known commodity while grooming a prospect. Going the other way, I would have no problems drafting a rookie and saying goodbye to Cutler if the Bears were tearing the whole thing down. But they're not, so that changes the calculus a bit.
Unless something happens that changes things, the Bears are far from "win now" mode, especially with a new coach and a new GM. I think we'll be looking back at the end of the year wishing the rebuilding would have started sooner rather than wanting to extend the "win now" mode another year.


This is akin to the White Sox. Rebuilding needing to start years ago but idiot Kenny kept staying in "win now" mode which proved to be completely and utterly stupid. Bears need to rebuild now and pick the best QB they can in the draft. That would be helped by tanking the remainder of the season.


I said the Bears' offense is in "win-now" mode, and not the whole team. I still maintain that it would be reckless to tear down the offense after finally modernizing at a conceptual and personnel level. As Dr. Ken said, in the NFL you can win even if you're not completely set on one side of the ball.


No need to change the offensive scheme at all. Just the player directing the offense. The defense does need a complete overhaul and if Tucker is capable, convert it to a 4-3 or 3-4.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
As an aside, I always read that screen name as vegasfan and picture you as a real partier which is quite different than when I look closer and then read the real name.

My brain still does it every time.


:lol: I wish I were as interesting as a misreading of my moniker would suggest, but alas, I'm just a guy who occupies his time arguing against what I see as false models. Can I be an iconoclast if I believe the icon never existed?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:50 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Rick, we're talking about franchising Cutler for next year and then seeing what happens on the field. Nobody talked about singing him to a 5 or 7 year deal without seeing the on field results. You jumped to that conclusion all on your own.
Lots of concern that a rookie qb will suck. That won't change in a year.
Frank Coztansa wrote:
How were the Bears not in "win now" mode coming into the year? They revamped their entire left side of the Oline with free agents. They used the franchise tag to keep a pro bowl defense end here. They went and got a proven, pass catching tight end. They got the best FA middle linebacker on the market after Urlacher declined to come back. Those moves all seem to suggest that the Bears were in "win now" mode coming into this season.
They were. I'm saying they may regret that the rebuilding didn't start earlier. They may find a way to fix things this season but if it goes down in flames like it looks like it might we'll be wishing that the moves they were making were built for the future. I doubt if the Bears go 7-9 or worse that the Bears will go into "win mode" next year.

I will say they did add a few good young pieces though.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Rick, we're talking about franchising Cutler for next year and then seeing what happens on the field. Nobody talked about singing him to a 5 or 7 year deal without seeing the on field results. You jumped to that conclusion all on your own.
Lots of concern that a rookie qb will suck. That won't change in a year.
Frank Coztansa wrote:
How were the Bears not in "win now" mode coming into the year? They revamped their entire left side of the Oline with free agents. They used the franchise tag to keep a pro bowl defense end here. They went and got a proven, pass catching tight end. They got the best FA middle linebacker on the market after Urlacher declined to come back. Those moves all seem to suggest that the Bears were in "win now" mode coming into this season.
They were. I'm saying they may regret that the rebuilding didn't start earlier. They may find a way to fix things this season but if it goes down in flames like it looks like it might we'll be wishing that the moves they were making were built for the future. I doubt if the Bears go 7-9 or worse that the Bears will go into "win mode" next year.

I will say they did add a few good and young pieces though.


Outside of QB and the defense, what changes do you think we'll be wishing were made earlier? They can still be in win now mode next year after a 7-9, or even a 5-11, season. The problems are obvious and exist almost entirely on one side of the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:54 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Outside of QB and the defense, what changes do you think we'll be wishing were made earlier? They can still be in win now mode next year after a 7-9, or even a 5-11, season. The problems are obvious and exist almost entirely on one side of the ball.
Um, the defense? :lol: Oh wait, you somehow made that not a valid response.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Rebuilding? What are you nuts? This ain't Baseball. I even heard Bernsie or maybe Mac say teams can turn it around in a season.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:56 pm 
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The defense is down 4 starters and playing 2nd stringers across the board.

You can piece together a serviceable defense from a few decent FA signings and a draft pick or two contributing. If you are able to excel on the offensive side of the ball, you can win 9 or 10 games or more and make the playoffs. Then, you are just a hot streak away from winning.

They could possibly still do that this year if they can whip what's left of the defense into shape and get Cutler back.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Outside of QB and the defense, what changes do you think we'll be wishing were made earlier? They can still be in win now mode next year after a 7-9, or even a 5-11, season. The problems are obvious and exist almost entirely on one side of the ball.
Um, the defense? :lol: Oh wait, you somehow made that not a valid response.


You came into this season believing the Bears should have started rebuilding the defense in the off-season, or earlier? If so, I've got to give you credit for predicting the sort of disaster most fans and even Emery never saw.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The defense is down 4 starters and playing 2nd stringers across the board.

You can piece together a serviceable defense from a few decent FA signings and a draft pick or two contributing. If you are able to excel on the offensive side of the ball, you can win 9 or 10 games or more and make the playoffs. Then, you are just a hot streak away from winning.

They could possibly still do that this year if they can whip what's left of the defense into shape and get Cutler back.


Cutler,Shmutler...What happens is McCown leads them on a 4 game winning streak and then when Cutler returns we have a controversy.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:01 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Outside of QB and the defense, what changes do you think we'll be wishing were made earlier? They can still be in win now mode next year after a 7-9, or even a 5-11, season. The problems are obvious and exist almost entirely on one side of the ball.
Um, the defense? :lol: Oh wait, you somehow made that not a valid response.


You came into this season believing the Bears should have started rebuilding the defense in the off-season, or earlier? If so, I've got to give you credit for predicting the sort of disaster most fans and even Emery never saw.
Thanks.

I said that they will have wished they started rebuilding earlier. Fire the GM. Fire the coach. Don't rebuild though. I'm not saying I called it out. The Bears have stayed in "win now" mode since Emery got here. That may have been a mistake. We'll know at the end of this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:02 pm 
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They should always be in "win now" mode.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Outside of QB and the defense, what changes do you think we'll be wishing were made earlier? They can still be in win now mode next year after a 7-9, or even a 5-11, season. The problems are obvious and exist almost entirely on one side of the ball.
Um, the defense? :lol: Oh wait, you somehow made that not a valid response.


You came into this season believing the Bears should have started rebuilding the defense in the off-season, or earlier? If so, I've got to give you credit for predicting the sort of disaster most fans and even Emery never saw.
Thanks.

I said that they will have wished they started rebuilding earlier. Fire the GM. Fire the coach. Don't rebuild though. I'm not saying I called it out. The Bears have stayed in "win now" mode since Emery got here. That may have been a mistake. We'll know at the end of this year.


It's difficult for me to see what you mean by win now mode, and why it would have been a mistake. I don't see a mistake in signing/acquiring the players they did on offense to make the unit competitive with most other units in the league. I think that the offense is more or less ready to go, e.g. in win now mode, is a good thing, and I don't see a reason to regret it. The defense is another story, quite obviously, but as others have mentioned, you sign a FA here and there, and pick up a talented rookie in the draft, and you could see an improvement as early as next year. Will they be formidable like they were under Lovie's good years? No, probably not, but with an offense in win now mode with good players all around, they won't need to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:15 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
It's difficult for me to see what you mean by win now mode, and why it would have been a mistake. I don't see a mistake in signing/acquiring the players they did on offense to make the unit competitive with most other units in the league. I think that the offense is more or less ready to go, e.g. in win now mode, is a good thing, and I don't see a reason to regret it. The defense is another story, quite obviously, but as others have mentioned, you sign a FA here and there, and pick up a talented rookie in the draft, and you could see an improvement as early as next year. Will they be formidable like they were under Lovie's good years? No, probably not, but with an offense in win now mode with good players all around, they won't need to be.
"Win Now" mode is a mistake if you don't win now. It's as simple as that.

We'll see at the end of the season. Maybe it will all come together and the Bears will have a good season.

I just look at the Bears firing a GM, a coach, and then just trying to do the same thing they did. In hindsight, we can look back and wish that instead of chasing a Super Bowl with a team past it's prime to reach it that we would have started to get younger instead even if it cost some losses. The Bears seem to have a great blueprint to go about .500 for many seasons.

It just seems like a lot of you think the future for the Bears is brighter than I think it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Its the NFL. Things happen. The Chiefs were 2-14 last year. In 2001, the Panthers lost 15 games in a row yet played in the Super Bowl 2 years later. In 2003 the Bears were 5-11, won the division the following year and played in the Super Bowl the year after that. The 2010 Packers were 8-6 and were one Eagles tackle on a punt return away from being eliminated from playoff contention, then rattled off 6 wins in a row en route to a Super Bowl title. A couple years ago, the 9-7 Giants beat the undefeated Patriots in the Super Bowl.

Dr Ken is right. The Bears should always be in WIN NOW mode. This isn't like the NBA or MLB where you have developmental leagues where kids can get better.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:36 pm 
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I would not franchise Cutler unless he comes back and leads the Bears to the playoffs and they win at least 1 game. Other than that I would offer him a short term contract with about $10M guaranteed. If my rookie QB is ready by year 2 I would trade or cut Cutler. I'm not giving him $15M right now for any reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Other than that I would offer him a short term contract with about $10M guaranteed.



So you'd let him leave, then.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Its the NFL. Things happen. The Chiefs were 2-14 last year. In 2001, the Panthers lost 15 games in a row yet played in the Super Bowl 2 years later. In 2003 the Bears were 5-11, won the division the following year and played in the Super Bowl the year after that. The 2010 Packers were 8-6 and were one Eagles tackle on a punt return away from being eliminated from playoff contention, then rattled off 6 wins in a row en route to a Super Bowl title. A couple years ago, the 9-7 Giants beat the undefeated Patriots in the Super Bowl.
Cross your fingers and hope you get lucky. Now that is a quality model.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Its the NFL. Things happen. The Chiefs were 2-14 last year. In 2001, the Panthers lost 15 games in a row yet played in the Super Bowl 2 years later. In 2003 the Bears were 5-11, won the division the following year and played in the Super Bowl the year after that. The 2010 Packers were 8-6 and were one Eagles tackle on a punt return away from being eliminated from playoff contention, then rattled off 6 wins in a row en route to a Super Bowl title. A couple years ago, the 9-7 Giants beat the undefeated Patriots in the Super Bowl.
Cross your fingers and hope you get lucky. Now that is a quality model.


As opposed to banking on an untested rookie and take all luck out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Nas wrote:
Other than that I would offer him a short term contract with about $10M guaranteed.



So you'd let him leave, then.


Only if someone else were willing to give him $15M for multiple years. I don't think he'll get that as of now.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Nas wrote:
Other than that I would offer him a short term contract with about $10M guaranteed.



So you'd let him leave, then.


Only if someone else were willing to give him $15M for multiple years. I don't think he'll get that as of now.


He'll get 4/50 with about $20 mil guaranteed I'd be pretty sure from one of those teams that's been drafting rookies every 3 years and crapping out.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It just seems like a lot of you think the future for the Bears is brighter than I think it is.


I'm with you on this one, BRick.

And we don't have the right GM to fix the problems either.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Nas wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Nas wrote:
Other than that I would offer him a short term contract with about $10M guaranteed.



So you'd let him leave, then.


Only if someone else were willing to give him $15M for multiple years. I don't think he'll get that as of now.


He'll get 4/50 with about $20 mil guaranteed I'd be pretty sure from one of those teams that's been drafting rookies every 3 years and crapping out.


I would do that now if it were a back loaded deal and the guarantees were about being on the roster on a particular date.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Yeah, but if he comes back and they go to the playoffs or he looks real good, it will cost a lot more than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Yeah, but if he comes back and they go to the playoffs or he looks real good, it will cost a lot more than that.


Sure. Then I franchise him.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Nas wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Nas wrote:
Other than that I would offer him a short term contract with about $10M guaranteed.



So you'd let him leave, then.


Only if someone else were willing to give him $15M for multiple years. I don't think he'll get that as of now.


He'll get 4/50 with about $20 mil guaranteed I'd be pretty sure from one of those teams that's been drafting rookies every 3 years and crapping out.
Agreed. Bad talent evaluators will pay a premium for Cutler.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Arians in AZ for one I would think would love to get his hands on him. He maximized Roethlisberger and did fine with Luck last year. He would pay him to be sure but I am sure a few others would.

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