Joravsky is singularly obsessed with the TIF money going to the DePaul arena and Marriott at Michigan/Cermak.

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Yeah. That's far from the worst use of TIF money. But it's hard to swallow when they're telling people their kids can't have art teachers and they're in classrooms of 50 kids.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He made a choice. He took money to keep his mouth shut. His wife had a plum gig given to her that she just retired from two years ago. Numerous relatives who now think that this is how business should be done. Sad stuff that we have been blessed to distance our kids from.

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Just goes to show you what an absolute fucking piece of shit slimeball that cocksucker is. Cant fucking die fast enough for me.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

I find the discussion on development underinformed.

There are far greater areas of impact on Chicago's transformation from a manufacturing center to the diversified economy that it is today than real estate development. You guys are looking at it in a completely backwards way. The development didn't drive the market, it responded to it. The reason it responded to it were successful economic policies that could be attributed, in part, to Daley II.

However, even your discussion of development is fairly unsophisticated.

I won't even address the side subject that there are people in this country who don't believe in probably the most singularly distinguishable and important right in this country, private property rights. Take away my freedom of speech but defend my right to own property and I am still a king.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

This is a childish viewpoint. People are not good OR bad. People are good AND bad...not that I would limit it to those two words in a more in depth discussion but just for the purposes of keeping it to a two line semi zinger.

I consider this to be like a John Hughes or High Noon world view: The good guys are always good which is why they always wear the white hat.

The truth is the world is more like Unforgiven.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Enlighten us then.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

agreed

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

No. Maybe over mcnuggets.

Turn the discussion. You have to understand that no one is building expensive homes if there are not high paying jobs. I said it before in another thread but Chicago was just as poised to be a lost, rust belt city as Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. Chicago ended up having a different future. That should be where you argue whether Daley built this city.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

This cheap motherfucker would defend himself for a murder wrap but blame the legal system as they sit him down in old sparky

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Until the pension obligations to retirees and new union contracts need to be re-negotiated over the next three years. Chicago's financial future is overcast with a 100% chance of being screwed.

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Of course the market responded. It always does. Daley II created a reverse white flight. The point is those economic policies weren't successful for everyone. They've further ghettoized the poor and driven much of the traditional working class out of the city. I realize the loss of the American manufacturing base is much larger than a single mayor in a single city, even one as important as Chicago, but the fact is many of those policies you are calling "successful" have driven business away from the city.

Daley II pretty much ran a taxpayer funded Ponzi that rewarded his family and friends. Now the money has run out. Daley isn't around to answer and when someone does get him in a deposition he goes into his Sgt. Schultz routine.



The concept of land ownership is immoral at its core. But obviously, my belief here isn't so strong that I make a real serious stand over it, like cutting off someone's head. Like most things, I just deal with the situations as I've found them. I think that's what most people do. But what could possibly make anyone believe that certain people are entitled to "own" part of the earth while others are homeless, just from a moral and theoretical perspective?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't really believe that to be true. Chicago always had a more diverse economy than those cities and the fact that it is a critical transportation hub makes it vastly different than all of them.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I own part of the earth because I worked,saved and purchased it. That's how things are done in the good ole' USA.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

I once got into a long argument by stating that Unforgiven is not a western. The term "western" is a genre designation that has more to do with the story than the setting. In a western there are white hats and black hats, obvious good guys and obvious bad guys. Star Wars is more of a western than Unforgiven.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

No, you own part of the earth because way back when someone else stole it from some Indians and assigned it a legal description that referenced the Third Principal Meridian.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Well since I'm Italian,we call "seconds"

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

So why are you so upset that someone was kicked off of land that was in the family for 80 years?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That wasn't my point, Rick, and you know it. I don't think the goal should be to make a city into a bastion of the wealthy. dolphin is right about one thing- I don't know shit about urban planning or the way to go about achieving a balance of housing stock with safe neighborhoods for everyone. Maybe it isn't even possible. But I think it's a more admirable goal than shoving every poor black guy out to Harvey and every poor white guy out to Round Lake Beach.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That is just what happens though. Areas become more expensive. Areas become less expensive. The goal should always be to improve the neighborhood. The biggest failing in Chicago seems to be the failure to improve other neighborhoods and not that the improvement had some sad but needed side effects.

I just find it interesting and it's a common discussion here. I heard someone complaining that poor people can't live easily in Hell's Kitchen and how sad it is that people had to move out. In 1989, they would probably be complaining about how bad it is to live there and how sad it is that people live there and don't feel safe.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

But "improvement" isn't simply a function of eliminating the poor or the lower middle class.

The entire reason we have zoning is in order to create the type of city we want. We have building codes for the same reason, and specifically because of safety. And that ties back into property rights. From a pure property rights standpoint, I own the fucking land, I'll build what I want, right? Nobody checked DuSable's cabin for code violations. There was no code.

We're a more sophisticated society in 2013 than a loose collection of voyageurs in various huts along the river were 300 years ago. And I certainly don't think creating zoning or incentivizing developers to achieve goals of urban planning is evil. It's when those goals are ignored in favor of stacking the deck to line the pockets of the favored and/or clout-heavy that evil enters the equation. That's a perversion of the system. That's corruption. And that's how you end up with a glut of office space or half-empty buildings loaded with luxury apartments that can't be sold. That isn't good for anyone. It's certainly not the hallmark of a "world class" city.

I can hear good dolphin chortling as I type this. I understand that he's got his boots on the ground in the real world and I'm wearing my idealist hat for purposes of this discussion.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

It is really an interesting topic. Of course Daley 1 and 2 made their sweetheart deals but I am not sure that to some extent that isn't happening everywhere. Not to their level but it is. Face it Daley was successful in improving Chicago as compared to Detroit or Buffalo.

Sorry not to be able to add something as far as poor housing is concerned but it is a hard thing to control the dynamics of a city. I have lived through a lot of it. I guess when I was young white flight was the biggest then the condo rage. Thing is Jorr, I think zoning has zero to do with it. The South Loop or the empty buildings you mention while probably brought about in back rooms have little to do with poor housing.

Would people really say Maxwell St. area or Wrigleyville are worse off than before? Wrigleyville was lightning in a bottle and the area got lucky with 1984 and Harry. Just one example of how the simplest thing can catch fire and double rents and people leave that can't afford. How do you help stop that? Why would you.

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Elections have consequences.

Shoving? The goal of every polish immigrant I run across is to eventually get his ass to norridge, des plaines or, if he hits it really big, park ridge. The concept is foreign to me and probably you but people aspire to the suburbs.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

You know, I would really hate it if the entire city starts looking like the South Loop, all soulless highrise condos. Sure seems like that's the way it's heading.

Also, I don't think that my generation takes the same view of aspiration to the suburbs as Polish immigrants. lol at namechecking Des Plaines, though! You clearly know of what you speak.

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I understand and kind of agree. That's why a samurai movie can actually be a western in terms of theme.

The core point I am trying to make is that none of us should ever sit and point at horror and say "not me". Every single one of us could be a cold blooded killer or a saint given the right conditions. It's in us.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Proper planning dictates heavy density at the urban center but no one is even considering the entire city to be that.

Your generation is heading back into the city center in greater numbers but take our friend IMU as also being representative or your generation. Schaumburg is Elysium to him and his. The city is a frightening place where "urban" people will shoot you.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I'm still mad that Little Bill had so much clout he could build that house with all the obvious code violations.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He should have armed himself.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

The sign said anyone trespassing, will be shot on sight!

I remember it as being a mind blowing moment when I first heard your argument. It really had never occurred to me that there shouldn't be land ownership. I believe I first heard it from a radical priest at Loyola U. It was a class similarly minded students and they all seemed to agree. The concept was again broached in law school. You can guess that it did not receive the same reception.

Really there are scores of arguments for land ownership from the moral to "big dog gets takes what it wants". It seems natural to me that should I improve something by the sweat of my brow, that I should have some claim to it.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Now you are getting into bigfan's area of expertise.

I would be there is not a home in this city that is built 100% to code. That doesn't make them unsafe.

You would be floored by the number of permits taken out to build two flats in this city that are now used as illegal 3 flats.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.