His flameouts in the playoffs are a small reason not to vote for Maddux on the first ballot. The extra six inches off the plate that he & Glavine routinely got may be another.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Ted Williams himself later admitted that there were many times he flat out wasn't paying attention to the game while he was in left field. He noted that he was out there making adjustments for his next plate appearance & didn't care who noticed.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

UGH....come on Reader

Why look for reasons to keep em out?

They're either Hall of Famers or they arent, right?


EDIT/ADD: Im not arguing the playoff or plate thing, just saying it doesnt keep him out

Teddy being Teddy

Did you know that one spring training, Carlos May showed up in Florida without his thumb???

_________________
Host of the weekly "We Fish ASA" podcast
Weekly columnist for the Northwest Herald
Bi-monthly columnist for Illinois Outdoor News magazine
Former host of The Outdoors Experience on WIND and The Great Outdoors on CLTV
http://www.wefishasa.com

But the point I was addressing was questioning why wouldn't Maddux get 100% of the vote.

Maddux was crafty, could hit his spots and was a brilliant pitcher deserving of his Cy Young awards. But every year (except '95), when the tv cameras focused on a reasonable approximation of the strike zone, Maddux and Glavine suffered. The hitters suddenly became patient and then Maddux & Glavine became mere mortal pitchers. They flat out didn't throw near the % of strikes nor get the same percentage of swinging strikes they did during most regular seasons.

Hell, their only WS title came at the hands of a free swinging (& young) Indians team who couldn't hold back from swinging at their usual assortment of pitches off the black.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I added on to that post but got busy at work.

I agree with your assessment, just not that it should keep him out


Although, Ill add that pitchers create their own plate. Maddux and Glavine were good enough to stretch it. There is something to that.

Yep, and he was still better than Lou Piniella.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Agree with you there -- was he ever in the top five of guys feared in the league when he was at the plate? I'm not sure he ever cracked into that territory. He was good, no doubt, but not someone who you would fear in your prime like a Frank Thomas. I think you need some longevity but also at least 3-5 years of being dominant in the game.

_________________
"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

I'd say Clemens from Toronto onward. Ryan, no, other than taking a few Advil after roping Robin Ventura like one of his steers.

_________________

Larry's main problem is he didn't play long enough to get the counting stats... but if you look at his peak, and tools (one of the most consistent RF arms I've ever seen), he should be in. Also, you remember him as one of the most feared superstars in his prime... i don't get the same feeling off a say, Craig Biggio

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Maddux will not get a unanimous vote......

Say thanks to KEN GURNICK, Dodgers beat reporter

The only name on Ken's ballot

Jack Morris

Here is what Ken had to say....

Morris has flaws -- a 3.90 ERA, for example. But he gets my vote for more than a decade of ace performance that included three 20-win seasons, Cy Young Award votes in seven seasons and Most Valuable Player Award votes in five. As for those who played during the period of PED use, I won't vote for any of them.

from: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/how ... y=news_mlb

_________________

u mean everything like hgh-anabolics?


Biggio was a compiler...he dont belong in..no juicers beling in except barry bonds.

the turd who kept maddux out should lose his voting rights forever.

_________________

_________________

I will go out on the limb and say Ruth pissed off a few guys over the years.

Just a fact of life. You are going to be an ass to some people then want them to set aside personal feelings for you. Its not going to happen. Ask Mr Kingman.

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

As of today (the top finishers) 182 Full Ballots ~ (32.0% of vote)

99.5 - Maddux
96.2 - Glavine
91.2 - Thomas
78.6 - Biggio
———————————
69.2 - Piazza
60.4 - Jack Morris
58.8 - Bagwell
56.0 - Raines
41.8 - Bonds

_________________
"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

Why not Ryan?

All the evidence people use against the main offenders is true of Ryan

False narrative and outright myth. One of the greatest moments in baseball history was seeing Ventura choke that old bitch until he turned purple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4j4ujBQY8s

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Maddux and Glavine's Hall of Fame plaques will be eight inches wider than all the other pitchers plaques. That's really funny.

Their enlarged juiced skulls won't fit on the standard plaque.

_________________

ah yes, the good ol primates.... you can dig up old logs from baseball primer chats around ~03-04 and find me in there being just as out of place, if not more, than i am here.

but yeah the overall consensus there seems to be maddux and the big skirt alongside the spattering of gavine/biggio with universal disdain reserved for people who vote for morris. i saw a compelling statistical case on there that frank tanana was a noticeably better pitcher than jack morris, who recently caused jim bowden and someone else doing a radio interview for MLB.com with the mandatory-nicknamed "sweet" lou whitaker to cut said interview short because lou started talking about how morris was only here because of him and trammel (two better HOF candidates)

personally i think glavine is one of the champions of "the hall of very good" --- he had good #s and i suppose i'm undervaluing his dominance when i was but a yute/teenager (i didn't start paying attention to baseball until the 2001 season.by which point glavine was getting ready to come to the mets and cash out during his retirement) but he wasn't nearly as "special" as maddux was nor was he as legendarily-versatile as smoltz was (what with the dominance as both a starter and closer)

if i were to get into a thesis paper on what a HOF-player means to me, i'd use that word "special" probably far too much. my semantics for a "HOF player" = you stood out head and shoulders above the fray of MLBers when you played, ergo you were a "special" player who transcended the status quo, ergo your recognition as being one of the HOF-validated legends of the game. that's the crux of my argument as to why (disclaimer: my favorite player) vladimir guerrero is a no-doubt HOFer.... yeah he only ended up with 447HR and ~1490 RBIs and his career OPS+ of 140 and 59.9 WAR (bbref) aren't necessarily at automatic "you're in" levels. however if you consider that the average replacement player of his era had a good chance of being supplanted with PEDs, let alone the top players of his era setting high marks to achieve "black ink" (leading your league/MLB in certain categories, an area where vlad doesn't stand out compared to, say, bonds or pujols or a-rod or manny) --- i would conjecture that combining vlad's unquestionably borderline-#s alongside the "special" factor (of him being a guy who always caused announcers around baseball to break out those stories of amazing feats that they saw vlad pull off at some point in his/their career) should be enough to get him in somewhat easily when the time comes in a few years.

that said, i'd place extra emphasis on the phenomenon of announcers around MLB always having some story about an amazing thing they once saw vlad do as being quite possibly his best credential for getting into the hall. for a good ~10 year run from 2000-2010 vlad was "that guy" du jour.... never the most popular/hyped-up MLB player (leading many to call him baseball's best kept secret, if they weren't busy giving that title to someone like magglio ordonez or someone) but he was someone who still to this day has a name whose mention elicits a reaction of wonder in baseball fans/people all around the world as their faces light up into a smile to tell you their story of seeing vlad doing something amazing that one time they were @ the ballpark / watching the expos/angels on TV. to me that's the crux of the HOF... it's a place to recognize people who had a good long run of captivating us to be amazed like little children by the feats of these overgrown manchildren playing a child's game for our entertainment.

and by that metric, the glavines and biggios of the world don't do it for me. they were both well above average for a long period of time, but if you have to invoke the word "average" in any way shape or form to describe a player's case for the HOF, well then you're not doing your job. when you think of a HOF pitcher you think of guys like maddux, the unit, and of course pedro--- a guy whose overall career #s don't challenge the record books but for that period of time between, say, 97-02 he was a fucking phenomenon that was worth going out of your way to see. much like whenever good baseball people had a chance to see vlad bat it was always an appointment affair because watching that guy take violent rips at just about any pitch imaginable while managing to never strike out 100 times in a season = wow. seriously how can a guy have a reputation as being the most free-swinging guy n MLB and yet he never struck out over 100 times in a season, let alone having seasons where he walked more than he struck out?

yeah, so while the stats are used to make cases for more borderline guys like your glavines and biggios, ideally a HOF guy doesn't even come down to the stats.... it's a simple eye/memory test to where you just think of the player and without even thinking you say "yeah" --- so that's where my guy vlad will have some problems and maybe not even be a first ballot guy..... in that the statistical revolution in baseball has gotten so many people using the stats so definitively in making cases for/against the borderline guys getting in i reckon vlad's stats don't stand out amongst the top roidbeasts of the era.... but i'm hoping that the voters will remember those times they were compelled to tell someone that story about that one time they saw vlad do that one thing that they had never seen anyone do before and remember that the only reason his #s aren't head and shoulders above and beyond the best of his era is because a good % of them were aided by science to have careers that featured them mashing like 27 year olds well into their late 30s or even lower 40s in some cases. c'est la vie.

_________________

Don't start this crap again Bob

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I don't think you can say Ventura won the fight, but to simply say that he got his ass kicked is just as bad IMO.

_________________

Lets just agree that Nolan Ryan is a piece of garbage and leave it at that

Did Ryan come up to the big leagues in 1968 at age 19 as a steroid user? Doubtful. Did he use steroids at some later time? Dunno. It's possible.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Did Bonds?


Likely

Does anyone else find it hilarious that Jacque Jones is on this years ballot? Do they just put everyone on the ballot? It's laughable that voters even need to consider him.

Ryan was a big dude even at 19. look how big he is next to seaver.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

You've never seen the lists?

Hilarious


Moises Alou, Armando Benitez, Sean Casey, Jose Cruz Jr., Ray Durham, Damion Easley, Keith Foulke, Eric Gagne, Luis Gonzalez, Scott Hatteberg, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza, Paul Lo Duca, Matt Morris, Trot Nixon, Hideo Nomo, Jay Payton, Kenny Rogers, Richie Sexson, J.T. Snow, Sammy Sosa, Shannon Stewart, Mike Timlin, Steve Trachsel, Jose Vidro.

It's not about building muscle with pitchers. Its about recovery time and avoiding injuries.


Its just a hunch I have.