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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:33 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Nas wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
I cannot believe how many people regard Elway as top 3 or even the best ever at that position.


He is the best ever IMO. Not having him in your top 5 makes me question any of your football opinions.

Your letting your adolescent love of Elway cloud your judgment

He's not #1. No way.


Put Elway in SF with Rice and they win about 8 SB's. I know he's the QB I group up loving but I really believe that he is the best.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Having that cast around you doesn't imply you're going to be good regardless of your own talent. He had resources and used them effectively, to his credit.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Nas wrote:
When is everyone going to start putting Peyton's numbers in context? He's played in the most offensive friendly era in NFL history and he's had more offensive talent than any QB over the past 15 to 20 years.
Ok, so there goes Montana now too.

I think Manning has proven without a shadow of a doubt that he makes the talent around him. He surpassed any offense he ever had in Indianapolis in Denver.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:39 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
When is everyone going to start putting Peyton's numbers in context? He's played in the most offensive friendly era in NFL history and he's had more offensive talent than any QB over the past 15 to 20 years.
Ok, so there goes Montana now too.

I think Manning has proven without a shadow of a doubt that he makes the talent around him. He surpassed any offense he ever had in Indianapolis in Denver.


That wasn't hard to do. He followed some awful QB. Thomas and Decker were already good and still will be when he retires. Welker was great too. How you know that a QB made a receiver is when that receiver leaves and the player sucks. That happened a lot with Brady's receivers and with Favre's receivers.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:41 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Having that cast around you doesn't imply you're going to be good regardless of your own talent. He had resources and used them effectively, to his credit.


True. That's why he is arguably a top 5 QB.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Nas wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
I cannot believe how many people regard Elway as top 3 or even the best ever at that position.


He is the best ever IMO. Not having him in your top 5 makes me question any of your football opinions.

He had a grand total of one season where he was the best QB in the league. The idea that his early poor numbers and postseason failures were a result of a poor supporting cast that he singlehandedly had to carry is grossly overstated, particularly when those defenses and the fact that he consistently played with Pro Bowl running backs is taken into account. The comebacks stat (which is an extremely coarse metric as it is) is grossly inflated on his behalf in a way it's not for others, with the Broncos counting any tied game in the fourth quarter as being eligible for a "comeback.".

The mere fact that Davis carried that team to a couple of championships at the end of the career does not put him anywhere near the conversation with Montana, Unitas, Brady, and yes even Peyton. It doesn't even put him ahead of Marino, though I know the simplistic RANGZ argument will be waved around in response. I really hope there's a serious reevaluation of Elway in the future the way there has been for Namath. He was a much better QB than Namath but there's similar mythologizing in both cases.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Nas wrote:
That wasn't hard to do. He followed some awful QB. Thomas and Decker were already good and still will be when he retires. Welker was great too. How you know that a QB made a receiver is when that receiver leaves and the player sucks. That happened a lot with Brady's receivers and with Favre's receivers.
It happened with Manning too. Also, they would lose someone and someone else would step up and be just as good. I don't think there are many Manning receivers that went on to great success without him.

Also, it should be pointed out just how horrible the Colts were for the season without Manning.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
That wasn't hard to do. He followed some awful QB. Thomas and Decker were already good and still will be when he retires. Welker was great too. How you know that a QB made a receiver is when that receiver leaves and the player sucks. That happened a lot with Brady's receivers and with Favre's receivers.
It happened with Manning too. Also, they would lose someone and someone else would step up and be just as good. I don't think there are many Manning receivers that went on to great success without him.

Also, it should be pointed out just how horrible the Colts were for the season without Manning.

Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:57 pm 
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It's a common debate among football fans. It almost always seems to find a way onto sports radio shows or even on television. It's a debate that never goes away, at least not for long. You've probably sat at a table in the pub or sports bar and asked this question numerous times: Who is the greatest quarterback in NFL history?

The responses are usually quick. Someone will say Tom Brady(notes), another friend will jump in with Joe Montana, and then another says Johnny Unitas. All of those suggestions are great ones, and I think each of them have valid arguments. However, I think there is one player that fans often overlook: John Elway. Here are three reasons I believe he's the best quarterback ever:

One thing John Elway did that few people realize is that he won with less talent around him. His Broncos won the 1986 AFC Championship with a running back (Sammy Winder) who led the team in rushing with 789 yards. Elway had no receivers who caught more than 64 passes, while Mark Jackson led the Broncos with 738 yards receiving.

His 1987 team had similar talent. Winder ran for a team-high 741 yards, and Vance Johnson caught 42 passes for 684 yards. Elway had a little more help in 1989 when Bobby Humphrey rushed for 1,151 yards and Johnson had one of his best years with 76 catches for 1,095 yards.

The point that I'm trying to make is that Denver failed to put playmakers around Elway, yet he still led the Broncos to the Super Bowl three times in the 1980s. He did it by beating other AFC teams I think were more talented. I wholeheartedly believe that the Cleveland Browns of the late 1980s fielded more talented players, but Elway always found a way to push his team to victory.

Unfortunately, as a native of Northeast Ohio, I got to see first-hand view of Elway's ability to bring the Broncos back from the brink of defeat. Most fans remember the 15-play, 98-yard series now known as "The Drive," during which Elway brought his team back in the closing seconds of the fourth quarter to tie the AFC Championship game against the Browns. Denver later won the game in overtime to reach the Super Bowl.

Overall, Elway led the Broncos on 47 game-winning or game-tying drives in the fourth quarter, which is an NFL-record. Other players have been known for their ability to bring their teams back, but none of them have the stigma that Elway had. If the Broncos were down in the fourth quarter and Elway was in the game, there was always the feeling that Denver would win.

One thing many fans can use against Elway when debating the greatest quarterbacks of all time is his statistics. He never had more than 27 touchdown passes in a season or a rating higher than 93.0. He's isn't first in any career passing category except for fourth quarter comebacks. However, when you look at Elway's statistics, he was consistently good, missed relatively few games, and still ranks in the top five in various career passing categories.

Elways is fifth all-time with 300 touchdown passes and fourth in career completion and passing yards. He was voted to the All-NFL team three times, and he was All-Conference five times. Elway was also voted to nine Pro Bowls and won two Super Bowls with the Broncos. He was voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2004.

John Elway's career wasn't just about the numbers. If it were only about the numbers, then I'd argue for Dan Marino, Peyton Manning(notes), or Tom Brady. But Elway had all the intangibles a quarterback needs to succeed in the NFL. I believe his will to win, his ability to get the most out of his teammates, and his 16 years of top-level play make him the best quarterback of all time.

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Last edited by Nas on Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:57 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
That wasn't hard to do. He followed some awful QB. Thomas and Decker were already good and still will be when he retires. Welker was great too. How you know that a QB made a receiver is when that receiver leaves and the player sucks. That happened a lot with Brady's receivers and with Favre's receivers.
It happened with Manning too. Also, they would lose someone and someone else would step up and be just as good. I don't think there are many Manning receivers that went on to great success without him.

Also, it should be pointed out just how horrible the Colts were for the season without Manning.

Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton

That's not true. Harrison and Edge was a little above average without Peyton.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:58 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Brady
4. Bradshaw - Only because during his era nobody changed teams
5. Young
6. Warner
7. Aikman
8. Favre
9. Manning, P----> can move to 5 or 4 today
10. Manning, E---> and I hate putting him here!
11. Marino ---> quickest BB release ever, was he reason they never won? I dont know, but he is the only one to beat the greatest team ever 85 Bears and that count for something
Did you copy paste this from The Onion? Or were you drunk? Because this is one of the stupidest sports post I've ever seen on this board.

You seriously would rank Eli Manning and Kurt Warner ahead of Dan Marino, and you don't even have Jim Kelly or Johnny Unitas on your top ten? All sorts of fail here.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:01 pm 
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I just don't get the fascination with the "comeback" stat. It's very essence is that the QB and/or team was lousy (or playing poorly enough to be losing) through the first three quarters.

I also think Elway is overrated. I can live with him in the top 10-15, but no way he's top five.

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Last edited by Jaw Breaker on Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:01 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton
Harrison? When?
James was good in Arizona for two years but far down from what he did in Indy.
Wayne had one good year without Peyton, but that was with another elite quarterback.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:04 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
That wasn't hard to do. He followed some awful QB. Thomas and Decker were already good and still will be when he retires. Welker was great too. How you know that a QB made a receiver is when that receiver leaves and the player sucks. That happened a lot with Brady's receivers and with Favre's receivers.
It happened with Manning too. Also, they would lose someone and someone else would step up and be just as good. I don't think there are many Manning receivers that went on to great success without him.

Also, it should be pointed out just how horrible the Colts were for the season without Manning.

Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton

That's not true. Harrison and Edge was a little above average without Peyton.


James career was pretty much over and Harrison was going to be a HoF player with or without Manning.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Bob McGinn of the Milwaukess Journal Sentinel recently posted his top 25 QB list (FWIW)...

In preparing the list, it was decided that only quarterbacks with 10 years of playing experience would be considered. I also included only players that I can remember watching. Because I never saw the great Otto Graham (1946-'55), he couldn't be on the list.

Criteria? There really weren't any other than years of service. I did consider the physical attributes of older players and how they would project to the NFL of today.

Passer rating didn't play much of a role.

For one thing, it doesn't factor in winning, rushing and clutch play. For another, the onslaught of rules changes since 1978 have made it so much easier for receivers and pass blockers to operate while at the same time protecting quarterbacks from the physical mayhem that had been visited upon them for decades.

More than anything, this list was based mostly on unscientific, gut feel.

So there's my frame of reference. Now here's my list.

1. Joe Montana (1979-'94): Magnificent from the pocket. Exceptional on the move. Great passer and a great runner. So poised and so accurate. It was poetry in motion.

2. Johnny Unitas (1956-'73): Helped drag the passing game into the modern era with the help of Raymond Berry. All the successful quarterbacks of that era had to be the toughest player on the field given the savagery inflicted upon them well after the ball was out. The ultimate leader of men.

3. Tom Brady (2000-'13, active): His strength of character has shone through time after time. Perfectionist in every way, shape and form. Never a threat to run but possesses brilliant feel for stepping into available throwing lanes. High overhand delivery and a perfect spiral.

4. Dan Marino (1983-'99): Perhaps the quickest release ever. Pure pocket passer with cannon for an arm. Highly emotional leader. Tremendous in the clutch.

5. Peyton Manning (1998-'13, active): Near the top of most-prepared passers ever. Used his domineering personality to make football a legitimate sport in basketball-mad Indiana. Early master of the no-huddle offense. Prototypical height, extremely limited athlete.

6. Brett Favre (1991-2010): Nobody had more fun playing the game. Not many ever had an arm like his, either. Teammates loved playing with him. Defined the gunslinger quarterback.

7. John Elway (1983-'98): Probably the best pure athlete on this or any list. Arm strength ranked right alongside Favre's. Rare running ability.

8. Steve Young (1985-'99): Six NFL single-season passing titles. Gifted scrambler-runner with exceptional speed and courage. Over time, he became a disciplined West Coast pocket passer despite standing barely 6 feet.

9. Dan Fouts (1973-'87): The backbone of Air Coryell. Almost like a boxer in that he'd stand there and take the most of brutal shots in order to deliver one downfield.

10. Roger Staubach (1969-'79): Didn't start his career with the Cowboys until age 27 because of U.S. Navy commitment. Athletic, efficient and iron-willed.

11. Fran Tarkenton (1961-'78): Might be the most exciting player ever. His crazy-quilt scrambles put people in the seats and helped sell the NFL game on TV. A little man with the guts of a burglar.

12. Len Dawson (1957-'75): The consummate passer. Six AFL-NFL passing titles. Stood just 6-0 but could be devastating throwing from Hank Stram's moving pocket.

13. Terry Bradshaw (1970-'83): Big arm and an even bigger personality. Overcame sluggish start to his career and became the all-time Super Bowl winner. Outstanding athlete.

14. Ken Anderson (1971-'86): Technically superior. Threw with pinpoint accuracy. A complete quarterback.

15. Ken Stabler (1970-'84): Fearless competitor with a whip for an arm. Big, left-handed pocket passer. Really good in the clutch.

16. Sonny Jurgensen (1957-'74): Played his final season at age 40. Deadly deep-ball thrower but, really, could throw any pass. Never took himself too seriously.

17. Kurt Warner (1998-2009): It all started with a tentative stint as a rookie free agent in the Packers' training camp of '94. Rags-to-riches story for the ages. When he got hot, it was over.

18. Ben Roethlisberger (2004-'13, active): Has anyone ever been more difficult to sack in the pocket? Better throwing on the move than from the spot.

19. Troy Aikman (1989-2000): Prototypical pocket passer with prototypical size. Effective scrambler early in career, too.

20. Steve McNair (1995-2007): Benefited by sitting early in his career. Developed into a consistent thrower, but his career was defined by toughness and running.

21. Donovan McNabb (1999-2011): Always seemed to run through the middle for first downs when Eagles needed them most. Developed into capable passer from mid-career on.

22. Warren Moon (1984-2000): Played until 44. After failing to attract an NFL contract out of the University of Washington, he led Edmonton to five straight Grey Cup titles. Rangy athlete and talented thrower.

23. Randall Cunningham (1985-2001): Rifle-armed passer, electrifying runner and serviceable punter. Dazzling, somewhat unpredictable big-play specialist.

24. Bert Jones (1973-'82): Career ruined early by shoulder injuries. Unreal competitor and passer. Bill Belichick has called him the best "pure passer" he ever saw.

25. Drew Brees (2001-'13, active): Far better athlete than given credit for. Terrific competitiveness and throwing accuracy. Unusually high delivery helped him flourish at just 6-0.

Among many considered, here in alphabetical order are the next 12: John Brodie (1957-'73); Roman Gabriel (1962-'77); Bob Griese (1967-'80); John Hadl (1962-'77); Jim Hart (1966-'84); Jim Kelly (1986-'96); Archie Manning (1971-'84); Earl Morrall (1956-'76); Joe Namath (1965-'77); Jim Plunkett (1971-'86); Bart Starr (1956-'71); Y.A. Tittle (1948-'64).

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Nas wrote:

James career was pretty much over and Harrison was going to be a HoF player with or without Manning.

Maybe, but his first few years certainly don't suggest that is true.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:06 pm 
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Big Fan wrote:
11. Marino ---> quickest BB release ever, was he reason they never won? I dont know, but he is the only one to beat the greatest team ever 85 Bears and that count for something


I've always wondered what Buddy Ryan would have done differently had they faced the Dolphins in the SB. As mentioned by others, the Bears' secondary was by far the defense's weakest point, and Marino's quick release made it vulnerable.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Nas wrote:
James career was pretty much over and Harrison was going to be a HoF player with or without Manning.
Yeah, but when you make excuses like that you can't say they were still great without Peyton.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Nas wrote:
It's a common debate among football fans. It almost always seems to find a way onto sports radio shows or even on television. It's a debate that never goes away, at least not for long. You've probably sat at a table in the pub or sports bar and asked this question numerous times: Who is the greatest quarterback in NFL history?

The responses are usually quick. Someone will say Tom Brady(notes), another friend will jump in with Joe Montana, and then another says Johnny Unitas. All of those suggestions are great ones, and I think each of them have valid arguments. However, I think there is one player that fans often overlook: John Elway. Here are three reasons I believe he's the best quarterback ever:

One thing John Elway did that few people realize is that he won with less talent around him. His Broncos won the 1986 AFC Championship with a running back (Sammy Winder) who led the team in rushing with 789 yards. Elway had no receivers who caught more than 64 passes, while Mark Jackson led the Broncos with 738 yards receiving.

His 1987 team had similar talent. Winder ran for a team-high 741 yards, and Vance Johnson caught 42 passes for 684 yards. Elway had a little more help in 1989 when Bobby Humphrey rushed for 1,151 yards and Johnson had one of his best years with 76 catches for 1,095 yards.

The point that I'm trying to make is that Denver failed to put playmakers around Elway, yet he still led the Broncos to the Super Bowl three times in the 1980s. He did it by beating other AFC teams I think were more talented. I wholeheartedly believe that the Cleveland Browns of the late 1980s fielded more talented players, but Elway always found a way to push his team to victory.

Unfortunately, as a native of Northeast Ohio, I got to see first-hand view of Elway's ability to bring the Broncos back from the brink of defeat. Most fans remember the 15-play, 98-yard series now known as "The Drive," during which Elway brought his team back in the closing seconds of the fourth quarter to tie the AFC Championship game against the Browns. Denver later won the game in overtime to reach the Super Bowl.

Overall, Elway led the Broncos on 47 game-winning or game-tying drives in the fourth quarter, which is an NFL-record. Other players have been known for their ability to bring their teams back, but none of them have the stigma that Elway had. If the Broncos were down in the fourth quarter and Elway was in the game, there was always the feeling that Denver would win.

One thing many fans can use against Elway when debating the greatest quarterbacks of all time is his statistics. He never had more than 27 touchdown passes in a season or a rating higher than 93.0. He's isn't first in any career passing category except for fourth quarter comebacks. However, when you look at Elway's statistics, he was consistently good, missed relatively few games, and still ranks in the top five in various career passing categories.

Elways is fifth all-time with 300 touchdown passes and fourth in career completion and passing yards. He was voted to the All-NFL team three times, and he was All-Conference five times. Elway was also voted to nine Pro Bowls and won two Super Bowls with the Broncos. He was voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2004.

John Elway's career wasn't just about the numbers. If it were only about the numbers, then I'd argue for Dan Marino, Peyton Manning(notes), or Tom Brady. But Elway had all the intangibles a quarterback needs to succeed in the NFL. I believe his will to win, his ability to get the most out of his teammates, and his 16 years of top-level play make him the best quarterback of all time.

The 47 comebacks stat as I noted above is complete nonsense and would be pointless even if Elway's numbers were legit. Manning and Marino both have more actual comebacks than Elway. And the "more with less" argument is vastly overstated since other quarterbacks surrounded by mediocre talent have produced better numbers than Elway did in those Super Bowl years, and his defenses weren't bad at all in any of them. Other than that, the article just relies on superficial talk of intangibles because there's no other way one can make the case that Elway should be regarded as the best ever at his position.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:14 pm 
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I love seeing all the Elway love here. I agree putting him as GOAT.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
James career was pretty much over and Harrison was going to be a HoF player with or without Manning.
Yeah, but when you make excuses like that you can't say they were still great without Peyton.


I think Harrison played only a season or 2 without Manning and James style of rushing (similar to Emmit Smith) would have been effective in just about any offense. The Colts are still trying to replace James after all these years. Saying those things doesn't take away from Manning IMO. He's had a great career and he's played with some great players. Steve Young is happy he had Rice and others too.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:17 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
That wasn't hard to do. He followed some awful QB. Thomas and Decker were already good and still will be when he retires. Welker was great too. How you know that a QB made a receiver is when that receiver leaves and the player sucks. That happened a lot with Brady's receivers and with Favre's receivers.
It happened with Manning too. Also, they would lose someone and someone else would step up and be just as good. I don't think there are many Manning receivers that went on to great success without him.

Also, it should be pointed out just how horrible the Colts were for the season without Manning.

Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton

That's not true. Harrison and Edge was a little above average without Peyton.

Edge had 1400 all purpose yards twice for the Cardinals

Harrison was above average


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:19 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
That's not true. Harrison and Edge was a little above average without Peyton.

Edge had 1400 all purpose yards twice for the Cardinals

Harrison was above average

Right. I agree. They were both a little above average. Neither was great.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton
Harrison? When?
James was good in Arizona for two years but far down from what he did in Indy.
Wayne had one good year without Peyton, but that was with another elite quarterback.

Another elite QB in his rookie year


You guys are crazy if you think Edge Wayne and Harrison were products of Peyton. They were all going to be great no matter what.


Now, if were talking Deion Branch, David Givens, and Kevin Faulk, you might have something


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:20 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
That's not true. Harrison and Edge was a little above average without Peyton.

Edge had 1400 all purpose yards twice for the Cardinals

Harrison was above average

Right. I agree. They were both a little above average. Neither was great.

Do you actually believe that Edgerrin James and Marvin Harrison were going to be anything but great regardless of who the QB was?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:22 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
That's not true. Harrison and Edge was a little above average without Peyton.

Edge had 1400 all purpose yards twice for the Cardinals

Harrison was above average

Right. I agree. They were both a little above average. Neither was great.

Do you actually believe that Edgerrin James and Marvin Harrison were going to be anything but great regardless of who the QB was?

Of course I believe that. System and surrounding talent matters a lot in regards to a player realizing their potential. There was nothing about Harrison's first couple years that scream HOFer and then his numbers explode when Peyton gets there. That's not a coincidence.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:23 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton
Harrison? When?
James was good in Arizona for two years but far down from what he did in Indy.
Wayne had one good year without Peyton, but that was with another elite quarterback.

Another elite QB in his rookie year


You guys are crazy if you think Edge Wayne and Harrison were products of Peyton. They were all going to be great no matter what.


Now, if were talking Deion Branch, David Givens, and Kevin Faulk, you might have something
No, read the thought process here. We are simply asking what players went on to be great in other places. The only case is Edge, and he was down significantly from what he did in Indy. It's not like Brandon Stokley or Marcus Pollard went other places and did well.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:23 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Nas wrote:
It's a common debate among football fans. It almost always seems to find a way onto sports radio shows or even on television. It's a debate that never goes away, at least not for long. You've probably sat at a table in the pub or sports bar and asked this question numerous times: Who is the greatest quarterback in NFL history?

The responses are usually quick. Someone will say Tom Brady(notes), another friend will jump in with Joe Montana, and then another says Johnny Unitas. All of those suggestions are great ones, and I think each of them have valid arguments. However, I think there is one player that fans often overlook: John Elway. Here are three reasons I believe he's the best quarterback ever:

One thing John Elway did that few people realize is that he won with less talent around him. His Broncos won the 1986 AFC Championship with a running back (Sammy Winder) who led the team in rushing with 789 yards. Elway had no receivers who caught more than 64 passes, while Mark Jackson led the Broncos with 738 yards receiving.

His 1987 team had similar talent. Winder ran for a team-high 741 yards, and Vance Johnson caught 42 passes for 684 yards. Elway had a little more help in 1989 when Bobby Humphrey rushed for 1,151 yards and Johnson had one of his best years with 76 catches for 1,095 yards.

The point that I'm trying to make is that Denver failed to put playmakers around Elway, yet he still led the Broncos to the Super Bowl three times in the 1980s. He did it by beating other AFC teams I think were more talented. I wholeheartedly believe that the Cleveland Browns of the late 1980s fielded more talented players, but Elway always found a way to push his team to victory.

Unfortunately, as a native of Northeast Ohio, I got to see first-hand view of Elway's ability to bring the Broncos back from the brink of defeat. Most fans remember the 15-play, 98-yard series now known as "The Drive," during which Elway brought his team back in the closing seconds of the fourth quarter to tie the AFC Championship game against the Browns. Denver later won the game in overtime to reach the Super Bowl.

Overall, Elway led the Broncos on 47 game-winning or game-tying drives in the fourth quarter, which is an NFL-record. Other players have been known for their ability to bring their teams back, but none of them have the stigma that Elway had. If the Broncos were down in the fourth quarter and Elway was in the game, there was always the feeling that Denver would win.

One thing many fans can use against Elway when debating the greatest quarterbacks of all time is his statistics. He never had more than 27 touchdown passes in a season or a rating higher than 93.0. He's isn't first in any career passing category except for fourth quarter comebacks. However, when you look at Elway's statistics, he was consistently good, missed relatively few games, and still ranks in the top five in various career passing categories.

Elways is fifth all-time with 300 touchdown passes and fourth in career completion and passing yards. He was voted to the All-NFL team three times, and he was All-Conference five times. Elway was also voted to nine Pro Bowls and won two Super Bowls with the Broncos. He was voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2004.

John Elway's career wasn't just about the numbers. If it were only about the numbers, then I'd argue for Dan Marino, Peyton Manning(notes), or Tom Brady. But Elway had all the intangibles a quarterback needs to succeed in the NFL. I believe his will to win, his ability to get the most out of his teammates, and his 16 years of top-level play make him the best quarterback of all time.

The 47 comebacks stat as I noted above is complete nonsense and would be pointless even if Elway's numbers were legit. Manning and Marino both have more actual comebacks than Elway. And the "more with less" argument is vastly overstated since other quarterbacks surrounded by mediocre talent have produced better numbers than Elway did in those Super Bowl years, and his defenses weren't bad at all in any of them. Other than that, the article just relies on superficial talk of intangibles because there's no other way one can make the case that Elway should be regarded as the best ever at his position.


You're dismissing those things because you believe it helps your argument. It can't be disputed that he played with inferior talent than many of the teams he beat in the playoffs. Name me a successful QB from that era that had worse talent and still won? He had memorable comebacks that he played a major part in. We aren't counting Jay Cutler type comebacks. Intangibles and what you do in big moments are important.

Are you a basketball fan?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:27 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Of course I believe that. System and surrounding talent matters a lot in regards to a player realizing their potential. There was nothing about Harrison's first couple years that scream HOFer and then his numbers explode when Peyton gets there. That's not a coincidence.


That's a very silly post. Not a surprise great players play better with good to great QB's. Harrison was supposed to overcome the shitty play at QB in his rookie year. I wonder how Fitzgerald feels about his numbers with shitty QB's. I imagine we would be talking about him being the greatest ever if he had a great QB. Same with Moss.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:28 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Of course I believe that. System and surrounding talent matters a lot in regards to a player realizing their potential. There was nothing about Harrison's first couple years that scream HOFer and then his numbers explode when Peyton gets there. That's not a coincidence.

I strongly disagree.

Harrison was averaging 7 TD's a season and Edge was a beast. Both were first rd picks.


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