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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:29 pm 
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Again, Peyton was great with whoever was around. He'd lose players and keep on going just as well or better. He then went to a whole new team and was even better. Eventually, the answer has to be one person since he's the only one staying constant.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:29 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Wayne, James, and Harrison were all great without Peyton
Harrison? When?
James was good in Arizona for two years but far down from what he did in Indy.
Wayne had one good year without Peyton, but that was with another elite quarterback.

Another elite QB in his rookie year


You guys are crazy if you think Edge Wayne and Harrison were products of Peyton. They were all going to be great no matter what.


Now, if were talking Deion Branch, David Givens, and Kevin Faulk, you might have something
No, read the thought process here. We are simply asking what players went on to be great in other places. The only case is Edge, and he was down significantly from what he did in Indy. It's not like Brandon Stokley or Marcus Pollard went other places and did well.

Not really a good way to look at it when the players in question spent all their prime years with the guy you're arguing for.


But, again, Peyton had Harrison, Wayne, and Edge.

Brady had Faulk, Givens, and Smith

And Brady is STILL better


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:32 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Again, Peyton was great with whoever was around. He'd lose players and keep on going just as well or better. He then went to a whole new team and was even better. Eventually, the answer has to be one person since he's the only one staying constant.


Wayne
Harrison
James
Decker
Thomas
Welker

I'm not arguing he didn't make the Dallas Clark's of the world but those players above would have been good to great with any competent QB. Trying to argue anything differently is wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:33 pm 
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Can you imagine how great Moss would have been with a great QB? Who throws you the ball matters but it doesn't take away from the talent that is clear to everyone with eyes.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Again, Peyton was great with whoever was around. .

From October thru December


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Nas wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Nas wrote:
It's a common debate among football fans. It almost always seems to find a way onto sports radio shows or even on television. It's a debate that never goes away, at least not for long. You've probably sat at a table in the pub or sports bar and asked this question numerous times: Who is the greatest quarterback in NFL history?

The responses are usually quick. Someone will say Tom Brady(notes), another friend will jump in with Joe Montana, and then another says Johnny Unitas. All of those suggestions are great ones, and I think each of them have valid arguments. However, I think there is one player that fans often overlook: John Elway. Here are three reasons I believe he's the best quarterback ever:

One thing John Elway did that few people realize is that he won with less talent around him. His Broncos won the 1986 AFC Championship with a running back (Sammy Winder) who led the team in rushing with 789 yards. Elway had no receivers who caught more than 64 passes, while Mark Jackson led the Broncos with 738 yards receiving.

His 1987 team had similar talent. Winder ran for a team-high 741 yards, and Vance Johnson caught 42 passes for 684 yards. Elway had a little more help in 1989 when Bobby Humphrey rushed for 1,151 yards and Johnson had one of his best years with 76 catches for 1,095 yards.

The point that I'm trying to make is that Denver failed to put playmakers around Elway, yet he still led the Broncos to the Super Bowl three times in the 1980s. He did it by beating other AFC teams I think were more talented. I wholeheartedly believe that the Cleveland Browns of the late 1980s fielded more talented players, but Elway always found a way to push his team to victory.

Unfortunately, as a native of Northeast Ohio, I got to see first-hand view of Elway's ability to bring the Broncos back from the brink of defeat. Most fans remember the 15-play, 98-yard series now known as "The Drive," during which Elway brought his team back in the closing seconds of the fourth quarter to tie the AFC Championship game against the Browns. Denver later won the game in overtime to reach the Super Bowl.

Overall, Elway led the Broncos on 47 game-winning or game-tying drives in the fourth quarter, which is an NFL-record. Other players have been known for their ability to bring their teams back, but none of them have the stigma that Elway had. If the Broncos were down in the fourth quarter and Elway was in the game, there was always the feeling that Denver would win.



One thing many fans can use against Elway when debating the greatest quarterbacks of all time is his statistics. He never had more than 27 touchdown passes in a season or a rating higher than 93.0. He's isn't first in any career passing category except for fourth quarter comebacks. However, when you look at Elway's statistics, he was consistently good, missed relatively few games, and still ranks in the top five in various career passing categories.

Elways is fifth all-time with 300 touchdown passes and fourth in career completion and passing yards. He was voted to the All-NFL team three times, and he was All-Conference five times. Elway was also voted to nine Pro Bowls and won two Super Bowls with the Broncos. He was voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2004.

John Elway's career wasn't just about the numbers. If it were only about the numbers, then I'd argue for Dan Marino, Peyton Manning(notes), or Tom Brady. But Elway had all the intangibles a quarterback needs to succeed in the NFL. I believe his will to win,
his ability to get the most out of his teammates, and his 16 years of top-level play make him the best quarterback of all time.

The 47 comebacks stat as I noted above is complete nonsense and would be pointless even if Elway's numbers were legit. Manning and Marino both have more actual comebacks than Elway. And the "more with less" argument is vastly overstated since other quarterbacks surrounded by mediocre talent have produced better numbers than Elway did in those Super Bowl years, and his defenses weren't bad at all in any of them. Other than that, the article just relies on superficial talk of intangibles because there's no other way one can make the case that Elway should be regarded as the best ever at his position.


You're dismissing those things because you believe it helps your argument. It can't be disputed that he played with inferior talent than many of the teams he beat in the playoffs. Name me a successful QB from that era that had worse talent and still won? He had memorable comebacks that he played a major part in. We aren't counting Jay Cutler type comebacks. Intangibles and what you do in big moments are important.

Are you a basketball fan?
Yes I am a basketball fan, and funnily enough the "Elway is the best because he's the best" argument has many parallels with the "Kobe Bryant is clutch because he's clutch" one. They're especially similar in terms of the scant amount of objective evidence in support for either view.

Point out the superior talent he went against in the weak AFC during the 80s and his specific tangible contributions Elway made in lifting his team against them. Repeated content-free citations of his inferior talent does not make for a convincing argument, particularly when it means one has to ignore defensive units that were quite competent and Elway playing with Pro Bowl running backs for the majority of his career.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:41 pm 
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You can't ignore the eye test. Would you agree that Reggie Miller is a HoF player or very close to it (he's in the HoF)?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Nas wrote:
You can't ignore the eye test. Would you agree that Reggie Miller is a HoF player or very close to it (he's in the HoF)?

The eye test alone is hardly sufficient to declare a guy the best at his position, most especially when it's frequently skewed. Miller is a borderline HoF, but his case is helped tremendously by the fact that he had strong performances in New York as much as it is by any numbers. Ray Allen has comparable numbers but he's probably less of a lock than Miller was for that reason alone and if he does make it, he likely won't be in as quickly as Miller. The same applies to Elway: the (made-up) comeback stat and The Drive apparently help people gloss over the details of his actual career and many of his pre-TD flaws.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Why isn't Dale Ellis a HoF player? He played in the same era as Reggie Miller and their stats are virtually identical. Coming up big in the big moments matter. Having memorable drives or plays in those moments help. Especially when you do those things with inferior talent. Elway led some bad offensive teams to the SB and he won when he had a good supporting cast around him. Similar to what Brady did this season he should have gotten that far.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:27 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Again, Peyton was great with whoever was around. .

From October thru December


For most of his career your timeframe probably works out, though he did have monster duels with Brady that didn't go his way all the time, and not always because he choked.

But from September - December he was virtually flawless year in and year out, and during three years in particular he was on point all the way in the playoffs. Good enough for me, though some QBs may have more impressive results in the post season. The post season record is mediocre, but the volume must count for something. He always delivered his team to the post season.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:27 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Nas wrote:
You can't ignore the eye test. Would you agree that Reggie Miller is a HoF player or very close to it (he's in the HoF)?

The eye test alone is hardly sufficient to declare a guy the best at his position, most especially when it's frequently skewed. Miller is a borderline HoF, but his case is helped tremendously by the fact that he had strong performances in New York as much as it is by any numbers. Ray Allen has comparable numbers but he's probably less of a lock than Miller was for that reason alone and if he does make it, he likely won't be in as quickly as Miller. The same applies to Elway: the (made-up) comeback stat and The Drive apparently help people gloss over the details of his actual career and many of his pre-TD flaws.

Not to derail this or anything but Ray Allen is a lock for the Hall.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:42 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Nas wrote:
You can't ignore the eye test. Would you agree that Reggie Miller is a HoF player or very close to it (he's in the HoF)?

The eye test alone is hardly sufficient to declare a guy the best at his position, most especially when it's frequently skewed. Miller is a borderline HoF, but his case is helped tremendously by the fact that he had strong performances in New York as much as it is by any numbers. Ray Allen has comparable numbers but he's probably less of a lock than Miller was for that reason alone and if he does make it, he likely won't be in as quickly as Miller. The same applies to Elway: the (made-up) comeback stat and The Drive apparently help people gloss over the details of his actual career and many of his pre-TD flaws.

Not to derail this or anything but Ray Allen is a lock for the Hall.


Good to know it wasnt meant to derail it.

yes, the all time 3 point leader who has a couple of rings gets into the HOF....and one of those rings he really earned with a shot that wins it!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Why isn't Dale Ellis a HoF player? He played in the same era as Reggie Miller and their stats are virtually identical. Coming up big in the big moments matter. Having memorable drives or plays in those moments help. Especially when you do those things with inferior talent. Elway led some bad offensive teams to the SB and he won when he had a good supporting cast around him. Similar to what Brady did this season he should have gotten that far.

No they're not really similar at all, especially when it comes to the advanced metrics. Miller was more efficient, a better scorer, and had higher usage. Even those stats down on Miller have him as significantly better than Ellis.

Speaking of which, Brady this year put up better numbers than any of Elway's Super Bowl loss seasons. This is what I mean when I say that even attempting to account for the talent surrounding them, Elway's early career does not look as good as you suggested. And given the talent he had when he did have the luxury of a "good supporting cast" later in his career, including Davis having one of the best seasons ever and two Hall of Fame targets in Sharpe and Smith, I'd expect better numbers at that stage as well.

BTW, if coming up in big moments is what matters, how do we account for Elway's poor Super Bowl performances?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:47 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why isn't Dale Ellis a HoF player? He played in the same era as Reggie Miller and their stats are virtually identical. Coming up big in the big moments matter. Having memorable drives or plays in those moments help. Especially when you do those things with inferior talent. Elway led some bad offensive teams to the SB and he won when he had a good supporting cast around him. Similar to what Brady did this season he should have gotten that far.

No they're not really similar at all, especially when it comes to the advanced metrics. Miller was more efficient, a better scorer, and had higher usage. Even those stats down on Miller have him as significantly better than Ellis.

Speaking of which, Brady this year put up better numbers than any of Elway's Super Bowl loss seasons. This is what I mean when I say that even attempting to account for the talent surrounding them, Elway's early career does not look as good as you suggested. And given the talent he had when he did have the luxury of a "good supporting cast" later in his career, including Davis having one of the best seasons ever and two Hall of Fame targets in Sharpe and Smith, I'd expect better numbers at that stage as well.

BTW, if coming up in big moments is what matters, how do we account for Elway's poor Super Bowl performances?


The fact he had bad moments is a fact. But he also had very good moments. This is where Manning falls short

Going into this game, that was the issue. Manning wants to elite of the elite, he needed a good game. he had one of the worst games of all time.

And everyone who is telling me "It was against one of the best defenses of all time" I will guess none of you bet on "THE BEST DEFENSE OF ALL TIME"

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:57 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why isn't Dale Ellis a HoF player? He played in the same era as Reggie Miller and their stats are virtually identical. Coming up big in the big moments matter. Having memorable drives or plays in those moments help. Especially when you do those things with inferior talent. Elway led some bad offensive teams to the SB and he won when he had a good supporting cast around him. Similar to what Brady did this season he should have gotten that far.

No they're not really similar at all, especially when it comes to the advanced metrics. Miller was more efficient, a better scorer, and had higher usage. Even those stats down on Miller have him as significantly better than Ellis.

Speaking of which, Brady this year put up better numbers than any of Elway's Super Bowl loss seasons. This is what I mean when I say that even attempting to account for the talent surrounding them, Elway's early career does not look as good as you suggested. And given the talent he had when he did have the luxury of a "good supporting cast" later in his career, including Davis having one of the best seasons ever and two Hall of Fame targets in Sharpe and Smith, I'd expect better numbers at that stage as well.

BTW, if coming up in big moments is what matters, how do we account for Elway's poor Super Bowl performances?


The fact he had bad moments is a fact. But he also had very good moments. This is where Manning falls short

Going into this game, that was the issue. Manning wants to elite of the elite, he needed a good game. he had one of the worst games of all time.

And everyone who is telling me "It was against one of the best defenses of all time" I will guess none of you bet on "THE BEST DEFENSE OF ALL TIME"

I've said little in the way of absolving Manning in this thread, merely been attacking the case that Elway rates as the greatest ever. I will note that even in victory Elway didn't exactly put up the greatest numbers in the world and that if Manning had one of the worst games of all time last night I'd hate to hear how you'd characterize Elway's losses to the Redskins and 49ers.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:13 pm 
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Elway got his ass kicked in those losses. But he won 2, is the best ever, of course everyone can debate it. Some think Young was better than Montana. But these conversations are being held in a realm that Peyton Manning isnt in.

But the ability to throw a ball further and faster, with accuracy, while avoiding rushers is PART of the equation.

But how can I discuss these aspects of being elite, when someone says IS JEFF GEORGE ELITE? IS MIKE BISHOP ELITE? ReallY?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Rome just dropped the "MANNING NOT ELITE" anymore, still great, still on the Side of the Great QB Mountain, but this Sb did taint the legend, no mater how many media members said it wouldnt.

Which was one of my issues, listening to media members basically say this game didnt matter to the legend of Peyton

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:48 pm 
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Rome is right as usual. Rack him.


Elway gets overloved because running qbs were so rare


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:56 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
Elway got his ass kicked in those losses. But he won 2, is the best ever, of course everyone can debate it. Some think Young was better than Montana. But these conversations are being held in a realm that Peyton Manning isnt in.

But the ability to throw a ball further and faster, with accuracy, while avoiding rushers is PART of the equation.

But how can I discuss these aspects of being elite, when someone says IS JEFF GEORGE ELITE? IS MIKE BISHOP ELITE? ReallY?


I'm sorry you don't understand how it's a slippery-slope to call QB's elite based on physical skill alone. It's ridiculous, actually. You judge the greatest QB's (or any athlete) based on actual production and accomplishment. There are boatloads of guys who had great physical skills and didn't do much of anything in their careers. There are probably even more who never even made the NFL. By your (flawed) logic, Kordell Stewart was better than Peyton Manning. If that's not what you're saying, then please explain what you actually are saying.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:59 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
bigfan wrote:
Elway got his ass kicked in those losses. But he won 2, is the best ever, of course everyone can debate it. Some think Young was better than Montana. But these conversations are being held in a realm that Peyton Manning isnt in.

But the ability to throw a ball further and faster, with accuracy, while avoiding rushers is PART of the equation.

But how can I discuss these aspects of being elite, when someone says IS JEFF GEORGE ELITE? IS MIKE BISHOP ELITE? ReallY?


I'm sorry you don't understand how it's a slippery-slope to call QB's elite based on physical skill alone. It's ridiculous, actually. You judge the greatest QB's (or any athlete) based on actual production and accomplishment. There are boatloads of guys who had great physical skills and didn't do much of anything in their careers. There are probably even more who never even made the NFL. By your (flawed) logic, Kordell Stewart was better than Peyton Manning. If that's not what you're saying, then please explain what you actually are saying.


And I am not calling them Elite based on physical ability alone. I am sorry you dont understand that as well. It is a starting point.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Eli 2 Rings v Marino 0 rings

I take Marino every time.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:04 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
Some of these guys are in the GREAT club based on pure physical ability to throw the ball. Marino and Elway for example


Not sure what I'm missing.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:06 pm 
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Leash, I think you are missing the point that Elway is awesome.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Leash, I think you are missing the point that Elway is awesome.


And overrated.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:09 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
bigfan wrote:
Some of these guys are in the GREAT club based on pure physical ability to throw the ball. Marino and Elway for example


Not sure what I'm missing.


You should have watched them play then.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:10 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Hank Scorpio wrote:
Leash, I think you are missing the point that Elway is awesome.


And overrated.


If you want to argue he is overrated at #1 I can accept that. If you think he is overrated in top 5, then you and I shall duel to the PAIN.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:42 pm 
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Don't know if it was manufactured or if he was aware the cameras were rolling but Id like to think not a lot of guys coming off the pounding he and his team just endured would be as gracious with their time at this point. Wonder if our franchise qb would have done this. Fucking right thats elite.



EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – This was after Peyton Manning approached his offensive line on the opening snap of the Super Bowl, trying to scream a change in cadence only to have the din of MetLife Stadium make his voice mute. "No one could hear me," he said. Soon, the unexpectedly snapped ball was zipping by his ear en route to a safety for Seattle, the quickest score in Super Bowl history.

This was after Manning threw two interceptions, including a crushing 69-yard pick-six, after he missed reads and overthrew open receivers, after he'd been pushed out of his comfort zone by a brilliant, brutish Seahawks defense. "An excellent defense," he said.

This was after he trudged off the field, the scoreboard above reading "Seattle 43, Denver 8," one of the worst and certainly most painful losses of his long career. "It's not an easy pill to swallow," he said.

This was after Manning dressed quickly in a silent, emotionless, beaten-down Broncos locker room, after his dad Archie and brother Cooper waited outside. "That's football. It's why I hate football," Archie said with gallows humor.

This was after Peyton received a compassionate pat on the back from NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, after he huddled with his wife Ashley and a couple friends, after he received a couple of supportive words from John Elway.

This was after he walked slowly, hands in the pockets of his blue suit, headed down toward the interview area, escorted by police. After a reporter from a Mexican TV station tripped over his luggage – pulled by a Broncos employee tailing the quarterback – and wiped out on the floor in a failed, ill-advised interview chase.
This was after he arrived to find a throng of cameras and microphones 15 deep around podium No. 2, after he gave praise to the Seahawks, took blame himself – and even handled, without losing his cool, a question about whether he'd been "embarrassed" out there.

"It's not embarrassing at all," Manning said. "I would not use that word. There's a bunch of professional football players in that Denver locker room who put in a lot of hard work to play in that game."

This was after all of that, after the developments and aftermath of a night Peyton Manning – the great Peyton Manning – had been so profoundly ordinary and the Denver offense with its 37.9 points per game in the regular season, the 55 touchdown passes, was nearly shut out. After the Broncos' dream season, the one Manning came back from neck surgery to engineer, collapsed in spectacular fashion.

It was then that Manning, walking down a hallway back toward the locker room, still surrounded by cops, still followed by a guy dragging his bag, still trying to just find some peace and quiet and to the mourning process that comes from losing the big game in a big way.



It was then that Peyton Manning heard the very respectful voice of Steve Lopez, a beer vendor from the Bronx.

"Mr. Manning, could I please get an autograph?" the 25-year-old asked.

Manning's head turned and looked Lopez in the eye. These were the opposite ends of the NFL food chain – megastar multimillionaire and a guy hawking Bud Lights in the stands. The wave of the crowd was pushing Manning forward, but he locked in on Lopez.

"Not now," Manning said, "but when I come back this way I will."




Look, everyone has heard the stories of Peyton Manning being a good guy, a regular guy, or at least as good and regular as you can be when you are this rich and famous and successful. Everyone's read and heard the saccharine tributes to him, so much so that it's become trendy to root against him in a way, to celebrate his comeuppance, to laugh at the way his face contorts in certain ways when he's frustrated.
Someone asked that "embarrassed" question with a hint of enjoyment, after all.

Everyone understands, or should understand, that so many NFL players are humble and appreciative and respectful as Manning is – that he is one of many.

At some point, though, at some level, what really matters about a man is how he treats people who hold no leverage over him, let alone how he treats those people in moments of tumult when it would be quite understandable if he just ignored the request.

How many times through the years had Peyton Manning signed for people, stopped for photos for people, been gracious to people. Now? Here? In the harried moments after this painful and thorough loss, after a chance at a championship was lost and might never come again, in the cramped walkways of a football stadium – not some charity meet-and-greet – isn't he allowed to be, well, selfishly human?

Manning didn't think so. He didn't ignore Steve Lopez. He didn't ignore, later after he did return from that locker room, others who made the same request. Here was Cheyenne Wiseman, asking if he could sign a T-shirt. Here was Michael Weisman of Philadelphia, looking for an autograph for his 10-year-old son, Alex.

After everything that happened, Peyton Manning kept stopping in the MetLife hallway and honoring requests for his time, no matter how fresh the wound, no matter how pronounced the pressure, no matter how desperately he just wanted to get on the bus, assume his customary place up front and get the hell out of Jersey.

"The respect he always has for the fans, that's why I like him," Lopez said. "That's why I asked, that's his reputation. I like the way he keeps his emotions out of the public."

No, he isn't the only player who would've told Steve Lopez to wait. He isn't the only player who would sign. He isn't the only one who knows how great he has it, even when things aren't so great.

Yet after this game of all games, Peyton Manning was somehow no different than before.

"You know, he's got the reputation for being a class act," Weisman said. "That's him. On a night like this [to sign], I mean, I appreciate it. I know. I understand. That's Peyton Manning."

That was Peyton Manning, even on the worst of nights.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:11 am 
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That beer vendor should get fired for that.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:42 am 
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Dont think anyone ever questioned Manning not being a great guy, loves the game, not stuck up, etc etc

Also 'Smartest QB to ever play the game"

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:20 pm 
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