This came up today when I was getting lunch with my old man and uncle. My uncle is a big Bruins fan, going back to the 60s. I don't think he necessarily believes Orr is better than Gretzky but he mentioned how some people think that he was the greatest player ever. I brought up Lemieux and then my old man brought up Gordie Howe. I know I used to hear that about Super Mario when I was a kid. The argument being he'd have better numbers if he had the same guys as Gretzky/didn't have so many injuries/didn't get cancer. Is it sacrilege to even suggest this? I haven't followed the sport since the 90s so I'm not aware of the current consensus amongst hockey fans as to whom the greatest is.

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Back off, Warchild. Seriously.

Orr was a special player. There had never been anything like him. You could make a good case for Howe too.

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Don't take it personally.

great players, but not as good as 99

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Mario like Sid today is just a level below. I have no idea of Orr as I am too young but Mario at no point ever did I say he was close to Gretzky. He was MJ x10. If anyone tries to say anyone is greatest besides #99 punch them hard.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

The Orr / Gretzky debate isn't apples to apples because they played different positions. That being said, Orr is the Gretzky of defensemen. No other player on defense has ever been as dominant or changed the game like Orr did at that position and its not even close. Its as open and shut a case as can be had, period. The Gretzky / Lemieux debate is an interesting one but the thing thats hard to get by is even if Gretzky never scored 1 goal in his career, he's still the fucking career points leader I guess you could make a case that Mario was as talented and yes, did have the shortened injury / cancer plagued career so its hard to say where he would've ended up numbers wise. Arguing against Gretzky being the best ever is pretty much a losing prop though.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Oh please stop. Shove your Bobby Orr up all of your asses. There have been 10 better defensemen since 1980 that would make him cry like a bitch. Of course he was great as was Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe. Just shut the fuck up he doesn't belong. It is like trying to roll out the fucking Bill Walton. Good guy. Top 5 never.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

This is a bad thought. Bobby Orr had far more impact on the game than Gretzky. The difference between Orr and whoever was the next best defenseman of his time was vast. A guy like Doug Harvey was a great player, but Orr was playing a different game.

Lemieux nearly averaged as many points per game as Gretzky and he scored more goals per game as have several others including Ovechkin, Bossy, and Pavel Bure.

Orr just absolutely changed the way defense was played. I have no problem with anyone who wants to say Gretzky is the greatest player. He's the best offensive player that ever played. But he didn't change the game the way Orr did.

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Don't take it personally.

Being the player that had the most impact does not make someone the greatest of all time.

Greatest of all time is Gretzky hands down.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

It's not hands down. Many guys who know more about hockey than anyone who posts on this board will tell you it's Orr or Howe. And I would say that a guy who single-handedly changes the way a sport is played certainly has a fair claim to being called the greatest. I'm not sure I'd say Gretzky was better than Jean Beliveau. No, Beliveau didn't score like Gretzky, but the game was played differently. He was a big dude who stick-handled like Patrick Kane. It's not as open and shut as you want to believe.

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Don't take it personally.

If you want to slurp Orr or Howe or Beliveau be my guest.

In the meantime, Gretzky is the greatest of all time.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Anyone who says Howe is an idiot

Ok Jorr just stop. No one is disrespecting Orr. Just don't even bring that crap here. If you only take Gretzky's assists and not even goals he would be the best. Stick to baseball.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

BTW the title of this thread is just a fucking troll stupid crap thing.... Orr or Lemieux. Lol Lemieux is behind Roy and Brodeuer. Stupid idiots don't give goalies respect.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Mike, stick to girlfriends. I don't know how much you've had to drink tonight but thats one of the worst thoughts ever posted on the board. Sure Gretzky's on top. Orr is right behind him and ahead of anyone else.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Lemieux behind Roy and Brodeuer?

You should have quit while you were ahead.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Anyone who dismisses Howe out of hand doesn't know as much about the game as he thinks.

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Don't take it personally.

I don't think you can really put goalies in the conversation. They have to be judged on their own.

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Don't take it personally.

To JORR's point , Gretzky didn't necessarily change the way centers played hockey. There were always high scoring centers, he just did it better than any else else. Orr literally changed the way a defenseman plays the game, and controlled games from the fucking red line to red line. No other player has ever done that. Not even close.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Ok so I exaggerated a bit... But you dismiss goalies out of hand? I am taking advice and going to bed so I agree Orr was the first offensive defensman... But being the first does not make you the best.

Hockey changed in the 80's by a huge margin. Paul Coffey would make Orr look like a rube.

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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Yeah Mike it changed by a wide margin and Coffey still didn't sniff Orr's numbers. Orr did everything better than Coffey. Its a joke you're even comparing them.
Edit: Amended for accuracy. In their respective highest scoring single season, Orr beats Coffey by 1 point. Partial point to Mike. Orr still did everything better than Paul Coffey.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Fuck Gretzky. Cherry picking soft little bitch.

Give me Howe, Super Mario, or Maurice Richard over him any day.

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Just like there is no debate who is the greatest NBA Basketball player ever, there is no debate who is the greatest NHL player ever. 99.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

1) Gretzky
2) Mario
3) Crosby
4) Lidstrom
5) Hasek

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Crosby?

Just as soft as Gretzky.

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I go by how players in the past couldn't compete in today's game. Orr skated by everyone in a time no one else knew how to skate. Gretzky took advantage of an era where the only requirement to being a dman was having a pulse. Plus the goalies sucked then too. Still, what him and Mario did can't be argued.

If Crosby played in that era he'd have 300 points a season. Probably the most gifted hockey player of all time.

Lidstrom is the greatest dman to ever live, hands down. Perfect player.

Hasek was incredible. He pretty much won the Gold for the Czechs by himself...as a goalie.

Honorable mention to Sakic and Jagr.

I don't mind if someone thinks Orr is the best though. That's someone's opinion and it's not a bad one. There's so many great players, everyone's top 5 will look different. Gordie Howe being the best just seems silly to me though.

You actually said that Crosby, Lidstrom & Hasek are the 3rd, 4th, & 5th best Hockey players of all time.
You also said that Crosby would have 300 points a season if he played back in the day.
You deserve a 4 minute major for bad hockey thoughts. Really bad. Really really bad.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

How is the most gifted hockey player, the best goalie and arguably the best all around defenseman in my top 5 hockey players of all time a bad thought?

Because neither of the 3 are what you said they are. Hasek the best Goalie?

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Ummmm, the guy won 6 Vezinas on less than great Sabres teams and even lead one of those teams to the Finals. He was a wall.

Lidstrom won 7 Norris trophies. Pretty much impossible to beat 1 on 1, always made the right play. An excellent PP QB who could put his shot wherever he wanted. He was pretty much perfect.

Crosby is just the most gifted player I've ever seen. I'm not old enough to see all the games of Mario and Gretzky in their prime but if you let Crosby play in that generation of goalies and defenseman that they played against, he'd of put up similar to even better numbers. It's a different game now. Mario and Gretzky would have nowhere near the numbers playing vs the competition that is around now. Goalies are just so much better that it's not even fair. Defenseman are so much better as well. Also, pretty much everyone plays a two way game now where as back then there was no real emphasis on backchecking as a winger.

You're either trolling me or you don't know the game of hockey that well if you keep thinking Lidstrom and Hasek in a top 5 of all time is a joke.