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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

kirk Heinrich better than Felton Butler better than Shumpert esp. Last year Deng/Dunleavy better than Pablo Noah better than Chandler Carmelo better Boozer Bulls also had better bench Bulls over achieved Knicks under achieved I'm wondering how it's Anthony's fault. If Anthony were such the chronic loser why did Al of the contending teams that could afford him attempt to get him and more importantly why are the Bulls fans generally dosapointed

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Because those teams had alpha males on them and we're title contenders without him (Except the Lakers) and believed that his great scoring ability would put them over the top.

While the Knicks underachieved last year with Marshmelo the Bulls overcame losing their 2 best scorers behind the leadership of Noah. Why couldn't Marshmelo provide the same leadership? Why has he failed at being a leader in Denver and New York? His teams have never over achieved and have routinely underachieved in the playoffs.

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He took a team in Denver that won less than 20 games the year before he got there to the playoffs the year the Knicks won 54 games the overachieved. I forgot they didn't win the championship thus Melo just can't get it done. This is the only yr. That he failed to make the playoffs. If supporting players don't matter then why does Lebron James the best player in the game keep emphasizing it. The Knicks didn't miss the playoffs because Carmelo failed to lead. I love it when media jargon gets thrown into everything. They missed the playoffs because every other player on the roster had down yrs with the exception of Hardaway Jr who wasn't expected to do much. If you look at the numbers which I know we aren't supposed to do in this Era of championship or bust the guy had one hell va yr. He averag red 27 and 8 and shot a good percentage. He also played out of position most of the yr. Woodson had him playing power forward and he never complained about it. Using this boards logic Kevin Durant also under achieved and failed to lead because his team didn't win the championship. His team also had arguably the two best players in the series and we're favored by many to win it all. Every player on the Knicks except Anthony had down yrs. Statistically but hold on we are not supposed to look at numbers when championships are involved. It's easy to play the championship game and discredit guys. Their are a lot of players in the league that haven't won. Lebron James won when he had a top five and ten player on his team. When wade declined he left. That illustrates better than anything the importance of a supporting cast. Carmelo Anthony made a business decision that made sense

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I'm trying to keep up with the points you are making but you are all over the place.

They won 43 games his rookie season after adding Andre Miller and NOT having the same injuries they had the season before. Was that overachieving? That's debatable.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2003.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2004.html

The Knicks team that won 54 games didn't overachieve. They were expected to be one of the top teams in the East. They added Jason Kidd and others and Tyson Chandler won Defensive Player of the Year the previous season. Even that Knicks team struggled to beat the Boston Celtics who had lost Ray Allen to Miami and Rondo to an ACL tear in the playoffs.

As I stated earlier NONE of his teams have overachieved. Making the playoffs was the minimum expectation of all his teams. Fact is he advanced past the First Round only twice. Many of those teams were expected to do a lot better. Stars like Durant and LeBron don't have a problem getting past the First Round. Even when LeBron had shitty teams he usually got past the First Round. Hell he carried a mediocre Cleveland team to the NBA Finals. There comes a time when stuffing the stat sheet just doesn't matter anymore. That's when you get judged on your results. Even with really good teams Marshmelo has failed to deliver as the Alpha Dog.

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We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel when Andre Miller is your difference maker. A guy that has never been an All Star is the reason you win but a Hall of famer is not. Same a piece at best. The Knicks finished second in the East two yrs ago and Anthony was third in MVP. Most people had them to finish 4 or 5th that yr and they finished second lost to the team that took the NBA champs to seven games. We are really searching when Andre Miller and Tyson Chandler are more important to teams success than Carmelo Anthony

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What? What player on the Bulls last season has had a better career than Chandler? He played a key role on a championship team. I argued earlier in their careers that Marshmelo was more of a winner than LeBron but after 11 seasons and multiple exits in the First Round it's clear that not only was I wrong but Marshmelo isn't a winner. He's a stat stuffer that has continually failed to advance in the playoffs as the Alpha Dog despite being on many really good teams.

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Noah Deng and Boozer have all had better careers than Chandler. At one time he was considered a bust. The comments that people make about Anthony were once made about Nowitzki. Garnett didn't win til he got with two other Hall of famers. Only got out of the first round once. In the last forty yrs the only teams that have won with nothing were the 94 Rockets and Duncan's early Spurs teams anyone that says they had Parker and Ginobili doesn't know what they're talking about and that doesn't need an explanation. Look it up what you call excuses I call facts. Many of you are holding the guy to standards few have met. Shouldn't Bulls fans be rejoicing at the fact that we have not been saddled with such a career loser I detect utter disappointment about the loss of a player that we couldn't possibly have won with anyway. If he is a guy that you can't win with then we don't need him anyway. BULLS FANS Worldwide Rejoice. It seems like sour grapes for him refusing to take such a shitty offer.

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Carmelo Anthony has never been on a team favored to win anything. The only team that was even in the mix was the one year with Billups. They weren't favored to win just contenders. Look at Kobe teams that have won. Garnett. Lebron. Shaq. Jordan. Isaiah. Magic. Bird. They all won with great players. This whole notion that a superstar carries a team to supernatural heights is a media creation. All great players need support. I wonder if the points made in the last two points will be addressed or will we have more Melo hasn't won a championship bashing. These are facts but I know they will be called excuses. That's a cop out used to ignore the points that I am making.

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You're still all over the place. What happened to the Durant and LeBron point? Now you are trying to tell me that the Rockets and Spurs were bad. You're willing to say anything except Marshmelo has failed to win as a leader of some really good teams in the First Round. He's failed to win anything and when he had a chance to go somewhere he wouldn't be an Alpha Dog he declined because of $14M (using your math on the Bulls offer of $75M). You'll tell me in 3 years that it's Phil Jackson's fault. You'll blame everyone else but the star player.

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He's been a top 4 seed in the playoffs many times and failed to advance 1 Round. We're not even talking about a championship. You can't win IF you can't advance.

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Even the Nuggets managed to win more games without his great leadership and with the awful Raymond Felton.

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List the Denver teams that were top 4 seeds if you can I will discontinue my argument. There were few very times they were top 4. I alluded to the other great players to demonstrate how they won with other all stars. This is an easy kill because I know the league. I don't championship watch. I actually watch the games. Phoenix Lakers Spurs Dallas and Minnesota all had better rosters during those yrs. Which one those teams was Denver expected to beat? It's interesting how the forty yrs argument wasn't addressed which means it was true. To say that Akeems Houstons teams were good means you probably werent watching. They had an aging Drexler in 95 Beat weak Knicks team. Most people like to provide an asterisk for those two yrs because there was essentially no Jordan. in 94 it was Akeem and a bunch of role players. Look at Houstons roster during 94 and 95. Duncan in the early 2000s didn't have much either look at the starting roster of their nba final series during the yrs when Parker was a 1st and second yr guy. Was he surrounded by any all stars during those yrs. They were the exceptions. Akeem and Duncan get credit for carrying teams.every other champion going back 40 years had multiple allstars at the time they won. Rather than address the point it's easier to revert to talk show talking points about winning a championship. It requires more than having a superstar player. That is my point i have presented a convincing argument . It's Carmelo Anthony's fault because he can't elevate a Knicks team that has JR Smith as probably it's 2nd best player to a championship. That requires a lot of heavy lifting.

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Carmelo is a great player. A Hall of Famer no doubt.

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I'm providing facts but invariably it resorts to run of mill bashing without any supporting details. I rest my case.

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How was he not favored to win anything when he was third in MVP voting? Remember, this whole thing started because you should "get Carmelo the ball and get out of the way". How did that not translate to them being a title contender?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You really aren't providing any facts and you're jumping all over the place.

Marshmelo teams were a top 4 seed 5 times in his career.

Those terrible Spurs teams were able to beat the 3 Peat Lakers and they won 60 games despite Duncan missing 20 games. Ginobili and Parker scored 4 fewer points per game than Duncan and then less than 2 points per game than him. Those were also some of the best defensive teams we've seen in the past 20 years.

Those terrible Rockets teams had 7 players average double figures and they beat a great young Magic team and a Knicks team that had pushed the Bulls to the limit many times. Drexler didn't join them until 1995 and that season they almost had 8 players average double figures. These are the same Rockets teams (minus Drexler in 1995) that gave the Jordan led Bulls problems in the regular season.

I really have no idea what you are arguing at this point. I just know that you are consistently wrong even with you jumping all over the place. Marshmelo has failed to lead really good teams to First Round victories. Really doesn't matter if those teams were championship ready. Great players at least find a way to beat teams they are supposed to beat. His teams struggled to win 2 games in a series.

BTW from 1991 until the 1998-99 season I didn't miss 1 Bulls game or 1 playoff game that was televised.

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you've got JBills on your side now

Kenny Smith Mario Elie Vernon Maxwell I believe either Otis Thorpe or Robert Horry at power forward. Matt Bullard was in there somewhere too I believe Rookie Sam Cassell. Not one all star out the bunch. Akeem carried that team for you to say that was a good team shows a lack of knowledge about the sport. You keep talking about jumping what I used just used is history to demonstrate a point. Teams that win typically have multiple all stars. That is why Lebron James left Cleveland. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand. This is jumping anything. My point is consistent Carmelo has not been on championship caliber teams. His first three yrs in the league his starting five was Voshon Leonard Andre Miller Marcus Camby KDdidit Martin/ Nene. With no bench. Look at the rosters of Phoenix Lakers Sacramento Minnesota during that period. Which one of those teams would anyone claims to know basketball expect them to beat. It's easy to talk about first round exits when you pull it up on google. I actually watched the games not just the Bulls. They won 26 more games his first yr in the league and you pooh poohed it by saying they had Andre Miller. They were not ever a number one seed in the west. It's interesting how you fail to mention the rosters that he plays for as a reason for his not winning. He chose to go back to the Knicks which means that he chose to play for a team that will most likely not win anything. The people who keep talking about not winning have not taken into account what it would have taken to get out of the west. I just provided 4 teams that were decidedly better during the first three yrs of his career. Didn't even include the Spurs. The Knicks teams that have not won would have to beat a Miami Team that had three all stars. Their second best player is JR Smith. My argument has fairly consistent but I chose not to be repetitive and redundant. I placed this in a historical context. None of his teams have been expected to win anything and the primary reason is the roster. He chose money and weakened roster thus he will have to own it. A lot of the points that you make lack validity. It's run of mill Bernstein type stuff. People that routinely watch NBA games know that the guy has not played on any team capable of playing for a championship. The year that he had Billups was his best shot. Look at the Lakers team that beat him. The Lakers had far more ttalent. Denver was usually an underdog during their playoff series.

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JBILLS knows either a good argument or a damn fool when he sees one

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long time guy,
Please reply to this.

If Carmelo was third in MVP voting, and a good strategy is to "get Carmelo the ball and get out of the way" then why weren't they one of the favorites to win the title?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I will reply to it. The get Melo the ball strategy was relative to Jeremy Lin. I keep making the point. During Lin sanity Jeremy Lin was showcased too much in my opinion DAntoni ran an offense where Jeremy Lin would essentially dominate the ball. The Knicks were about a 500 team during this pd. Goff stated that the Knicks would be a better team if you simply got Melo the ball. That has been proven to be true. He never said that they would win a championship. I can't believe I'm supporting Goff because his knowledge of basketball sucks all ass. I agree with him and so did Woodson also. When he became the coach he took the ball out of Lins hands and the Knicks won 54 games. They were not a championship team but the were better. During Lin sanity there were people that mistakenly believed that the ball should have been in Lin and not Melo's hands. Goff merely pointed out something that is endemic throughout the history of basketball which is you put the ball in your best players hands. Melo bashes have conflated the argument by throwing in championships the original statement was not made to state that the Knicks would win a championship. They would be a better team and that has been proven. They were a number 2 seed the first yr. They got away from Linsanity. They were predicted to be a 4th or 5 the seed before the year began. Boston and the Bulls even without Rose were predicted to finish higher. The get Melo the ball and get out of his way can get you to the playoffs it's not a good strategy for winning a championship. I do think he can win a championship as a #1 scoring option but he needs another elite player or two to go along with him. That makes him no different than Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Isaiah, or most anyone else that has won a championship. He has not really had that during his career. I provided historical context that is irrefutable. The yr. He finished third in MVP the championship was won by a guy that had a top five guy and also finished first in MVP voting

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Marshmelo Playoff Facts:

In 10 trips to the playoffs his teams have lasted 5 or few games 7 times

His teams were a top 4 seed 5 times

In 66 total playoff games he's shot LESS THAN 42% from the field and 33% from 3.

He shoots the ball over 21 times but averages less than 3 assists.

His teams have been swept 3 times

His teams won only 1 game 4 times

His teams won only 2 games once

His teams advanced 2 times (Even in baseball that's bad)

He shot over 47% once

He shot under 40% 4 times

He shot under 37% 3 times

Under 34% twice

He has shot under 10% from the field in multiple games despite shooting the ball 15+ times

He's won 23 games and lost 43

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Signs your team doesn't suck:

Having 7 or more players average 10 or more points per game.

Winning 60 games even though your star player misses a lot of time.

Having role players average 4 or fewer points per game than your star player.

Winning a championship

Destroying great teams on your road to a championship.

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Read the very first post in this thread.

The whole point is that Lin may not have been the answer, but neither is Carmelo. The Knicks looked better playing team basketball rather than "get the ball to Carmelo and get out of the way". Wanting to go back to the failed plan of just relying on Carmelo to do anything is a bad strategy. Lin ultimately fizzled out but the point still matters. You aren't winning anything meaningful with the "Get the ball to Carmelo and get out of the way". That is why he was third in MVP voting and even you realize they weren't real title contenders.

He may be better than Lin but who cares? They still haven't accomplished anything besides a good regular season record once.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

which teams

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They were not better playing team ball. During Linsanity Jeremy lin dominated the ball and all it was him dominating the ball. Their record was better when they went to a Melo centric offense. Look at their record the first yr. Under woodson. It was better.

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They looked better under Lin. It did go away.

They had a good season that was ultimately meaningless. If that is what you are saying justifies the strategy of "Get the ball to Carmelo and get out of the way" then I think you have low standards for what good basketball results are.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

More Marshmelo Playoff Facts:

The Knicks were swept his first year in New York even though Amare and Billups were still playing at a high level.

Marshmelo shot 37% in that series

He shot LESS THAN 30% in 2 games

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This covers his entire 66 games. Blaming his teammates when he's shooting over 25% of their shots and missing 60% or more of his shots doesn't make a lot of sense. Many of the games they lost were close. Therefore it's not a stretch to say his poor play cost his team.

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