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 Post subject: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:05 pm 
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I'll preface this by saying I'm looking forward to serious and funny responses.

Twice within the past couple of weeks, I've had to politely tell people I was with that you shouldn't leave already thawed or partially thawed chicken out at room temperature. I explained how fast bacteria grows and how unsafe it is. Both times, the response was, "The grilling process will kill any bacteria."

I got their logic and couldn't really counter it with anything other than restating my original point of how unsafe it is to do.

Any suggestions on what my response should be? And, does grilling really kill all bacteria that may grow due to unsafe thawing practices?

Thank you in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 pm 
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I grew up on beef and chicken thawing out in the sink during the day. I survived.... barely.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:48 pm 
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I wouldn't leave it out for more than 45min if still "frozen" yet pliable.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Il. Health Dept. says that chicken can be in the temperature danger zone (over 42 degrees) for up to 4 hrs thawed,
I wouldn't suggest it. But if you cook it to 150 degrees internal temp it is supposed to kill all bacteria. (Used to be
160 not sure why they changed it I still do 160.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:17 pm 
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eat up, YOLO

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:28 pm 
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eat up, YOLO


:lol: Chicken tar tar?


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:11 pm 
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My husband's family cooks really old school. It drives me crazy because I am crazy when it comes to food cleanliness. I've asked a chef. His response was chicken should be okay beef probably not because most eat it partially rare. I'd never do it, remember George got sick from his clams casino.

Here is a guy's response that says he's a microbiologist.
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/282689

Does cooking kill bacteria? Yes... but not completely. Bacterial populations are extremely large, so the best way to consider them is to look at how many logs of bacteria are present per mL or per gram (e.g. 1000 = 3 logs, 1 million = 6 logs). Cooking reduces the bacterial load in meat by several logs but does not kill all of the bacteria. If you start with 8 logs and reduce the population by say 4 logs, you are still left with 10 000 bacteria, which might be enough to make you sick! Foods of all kinds have different bacterial populations (pathogenic and non-pathogenic) associated with them and most of the pathogens you might cultivate in your kitchen will come from the food itself. Often they are present in fairly low numbers and the population is reduced to essentially nothing or a low enough dose not to cause an infection by cooking.

The problem with leaving food out is that the population of pathogens can replicate to high enough numbers that there are still enough survivors to cause an infection after cooking. As an aside, the types of temperatures and pressures used in canning, however, are effective at killing "all" bacteria (i.e. they reduce the potential bacterial load of the most heat-resistant bacterial standards by 13 logs, which is more than enough for foodborne pathogens). In fact, it is the same technique used to sterilize medical equipment!

But each kind of food has different types of pathogens and each type of pathogen has a different infectious dose and method for causing illness, which is why it is hard to make a judgement call on whether it is safe to bend the rules about food handling for a particular food item. Also, the relative health of the person eating the food will play an important role in whether they get sick or not. Taking antacids, antibiotics, immunosuppressive medications, etc can make a person more likely to get ill - a bacterial dose that would not affect a healthy person could affect someone in the aforementioned situation.

When it comes to chicken, there would have mostly Salmonella and Campylobacter on the surface in a fairly high population (unless it is mechanically de-boned, in which case they may be inside the meat too) and since the skin gets the hottest during oven cooking, they will be reduced to a very low level if the meat is cooked properly. Hence the reason for not washing chicken, as previously mentioned - these bacteria could be spread to other foods that will be eaten raw, like vegetables for a salad. As to whether all the bacteria will be killed by cooking after sitting out on the chicken overnight or not, I don't know, as it depends in the initial bacteria load and what temperature the meat was stored at.

The previous comments on toxins in foods like rice is very important too - in this case, heating followed by keeping the rice warm results in the formation and release of toxins that cause food poisoning, even after the bacteria that made the toxins have died. Just to complicate things, some toxins are heat stable and others are not, so sometimes reheating the food destroyes the toxin but not always. Dairy products are more likely to have Staphylococcus aureus heat stable toxins, etc. But I don't think there are many toxin producers associated with chicken, so that shouldn't be a factor here.

I can say from personal experience that anything left out overnight is going to start growing bacteria, and something that may be present in low enough levels that it can't cause an infection can multiply to the point where it is capable of doing so. Case in point: I gave myself a very unlpleasant 4-day gastrointestinal infection by pressing tofu on the counter overnight (rather than the recommended 2 hours). Given how unpleasant these infections can be and the small but significant risk of complications, I would err on the side of caution and toss it, as you did.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:15 pm 
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Thanks to all who have posted. Great stuff.

Spaulding, that's a dissertation, and I love it. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:17 pm 
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I learned something too. I love cooking and learning about it. So thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:20 pm 
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I'd say you're in more danger from the chicken not cooking all the way through if you don't give it the proper time to reach room temperature before you grill it...


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:21 pm 
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I think chicken breast is like a steak and you have room as you grill the surface quite hot. The trouble as I have been told is when after thawing the chicken or beef is ground or otherwise prepped such that the former outside is now on the inside and not possibly cooked 100%. But wtf do I know? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:34 pm 
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You can take a food prep and sanitation class for like $50 at the city of chicago. it is required to work in a commercial kitchen. Better said, someone who is licensed must be present in a commercial kitchen.

I assume thats where mcBrides got his info, from the State version of the same class.

Worst thing was the teacher freaking everyone out about NEVER eating out. I asked him if he ever goes out for dinner and said NO. claims he hasnt gone for dinner in 15 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Per FDA food code minimum internal cooking temp for chicken: 165 F: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/Foodb ... 260394.pdf

Per State of Illinois Department of Public Health, Recommended safe cooking temp for chicken: 180 F. http://www.idph.state.il.us/about/fdd/safecooktemp.htm.

As previously mentioned, cooking does not kill all bacteria. Thus the 4 hour room temp rule. Otherwise food would be sterilized which of course it's not.

As for training, actually effective July 1 any one handling food or food service equipment in Illinois restaurants (i.e virtually everyone working there) must complete a training program. Health Departments won't start enforcing until Jan 1 2015 but it is law. On line classes are available for $10-$15.

http://www.servsafe.com/regulatory-info ... ry-changes

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:12 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
You can take a food prep and sanitation class for like $50 at the city of chicago. it is required to work in a commercial kitchen. Better said, someone who is licensed must be present in a commercial kitchen.

I assume thats where mcBrides got his info, from the State version of the same class.

Worst thing was the teacher freaking everyone out about NEVER eating out. I asked him if he ever goes out for dinner and said NO. claims he hasnt gone for dinner in 15 years.

Wonder if he eats pussy? No bacteria there.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:16 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
Worst thing was the teacher freaking everyone out about NEVER eating out. I asked him if he ever goes out for dinner and said NO. claims he hasnt gone for dinner in 15 years.

Yea they really try to get you grossed out :( But really if you worry about it you honestly would never
go out and eat.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Meat needs to be aged. Leave it out until it crawls across the counter like steak in Poltergeist and you'll have yourself one TENDER VITTLE!

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:33 pm 
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FUCKIN YUMMY!


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:38 pm 
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Biggest no-no is leaving any kind of ground meat out -- grinding of the meat allows bits that were on the outside to get on the inside and get more evenly distributed throughout the meat which greatly increases your chances of contamination.

I am usually of the opinion that people are overly cautious about this. I wouldn't try a wartime Costanza routine with 4 week old steak, but assuming it was refrigerated and then left at room temp for a while, the inside is still going to be colder than the outside, so any bacteria that happened to be inside the food will be much more slow to grow. And then since you are probably searing the outside of the meat, you're going to be OK more often than not.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Meat needs to be aged. Leave it out until it crawls across the counter like steak in Poltergeist and you'll have yourself one TENDER VITTLE!

I always leave steaks out before grilling at least a half hour. Never been sick yet. I also leave chicken out too but only when grilling soon after thawing.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:43 pm 
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newper wrote:
Biggest no-no is leaving any kind of ground meat out -- grinding of the meat allows bits that were on the outside to get on the inside and get more evenly distributed throughout the meat which greatly increases your chances of contamination.

I am usually of the opinion that people are overly cautious about this. I wouldn't try a wartime Costanza routine with 4 week old steak, but assuming it was refrigerated and then left at room temp for a while, the inside is still going to be colder than the outside, so any bacteria that happened to be inside the food will be much more slow to grow. And then since you are probably searing the outside of the meat, you're going to be OK more often than not.

This is correct. I get really careful with ground beef thawing. Ground beef is ground beef I do not trust the packaging process in a lot of these packing plants anyway. Seen some of them firsthand always cook ground beef well done.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:26 pm 
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I read Spaulding's post as Seacrest, and I thought Seacrest was talking about his husband.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:59 am 
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Thanks for all of the tips. I'm in one of the hardest-hit South Bend neighborhoods from the July 1 storms and can use the info after having lost electricity for 4 and one-half days...!

I did use a little generator to try to keep the fridge and freezer going, and luckily I didn't have too much meat on hand to worry about spoilage. But I've never had to deal with an outage even half that length before.


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:51 am 
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newper wrote:
Biggest no-no is leaving any kind of ground meat out -- grinding of the meat allows bits that were on the outside to get on the inside and get more evenly distributed throughout the meat which greatly increases your chances of contamination.

I am usually of the opinion that people are overly cautious about this. I wouldn't try a wartime Costanza routine with 4 week old steak, but assuming it was refrigerated and then left at room temp for a while, the inside is still going to be colder than the outside, so any bacteria that happened to be inside the food will be much more slow to grow. And then since you are probably searing the outside of the meat, you're going to be OK more often than not.


Food-borne illness (FBI) affects different people differently. The very young, the very old, and people with weakened immune systems are much more at risk. While you might be "ok more often than not," the the one "not" could have a very unpleasant outcome if it is grandpa who is affected that day.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:53 am 
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Scooter wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Meat needs to be aged. Leave it out until it crawls across the counter like steak in Poltergeist and you'll have yourself one TENDER VITTLE!

I always leave steaks out before grilling at least a half hour. Never been sick yet. I also leave chicken out too but only when grilling soon after thawing.


1/2 hour is not four hours. And since bacteria multiply exponentially, there would be far fewer in the first 30 minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:10 am 
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i have not tried this trick out but it seems pretty cool

http://www.foodbeast.com/2014/07/08/how ... ectricity/


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:44 am 
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Scooter wrote:
always cook ground beef well done.

No.

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Last edited by Douchebag on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:05 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
Scooter wrote:
[always cook ground beef well done.

No.


i have a friend who orders a burger well-done all the time....it's embarrassing, frankly


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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:13 am 
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Bagels wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Scooter wrote:
[always cook ground beef well done.

No.


i have a friend who orders a burger well-done all the time....it's embarrassing, frankly

Indeed.

Well-done ground-beef is one of the most tasteless things ever. Why even eat it at that point?

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:13 am 
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Bagels wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Scooter wrote:
[always cook ground beef well done.

No.


i have a friend who orders a burger well-done all the time....it's embarrassing, frankly


My embarassment comes with steak. I have a family member that puts ketchup on steak... I wont even go out to a steakhouse with them anymore. My wife will ask for steak sauce no matter where we are. She started to ask when we were at Del Frisco and I had to interrupt her and change the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Thawing food
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:21 am 
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Eat what you like. I don't use ketchup on a steak and I prefer my burger to have a touch of pink on the inside, but I am not going to begrduge anybody who eats differently.

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