Been doing it for years. I'm gonna make you guys feel better about it.

Had the Cubs had Maddux from 1993-2002, his best years, the Cubs still wouldn't have won a World Series. Those Cubs teams were shit. Only the 1998 team made the playoffs, as a WILD CARD, and Maddux wouldn't have won the WS for that team either.

So there. Losing him really didn't matter.

They are going to be the 90s Braves going forward, so it all balances out.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Two of the four years after Maddux left, the Cubs were over .500, then there was 1998. So, half of the next 6 years, they were above average.

_________________
You know me like that.

And that was their most successful 6 year stretch since the beginning of the 1970s.

_________________
You know me like that.

Still wouldn't have won with him. Cuz Maddux's money would have been money not spent on other players by the Trib to make them slightly above average in the years you speak of.

I win.

So, your winning argument is the Cubs were a better team with Jose Guzman than they would have been with Greg Maddux?

_________________
You know me like that.

They got some hitters, too, I'm sure, with the money saved. Didn't Mike Morgan have some decent years for the Cubs? Not Maddux-like, but the Trib had a budget back then.

I'm just saying the overall Win total would have been about the same. Let's say he gave him 5 more wins each year (that would be a lot) for the sake of your argument. I'll bet the Cubs missed the playoffs by more than 5 games (I'm sure you'll look it up) in all of those years except for 98 of course. But the Yankees would have killed them in 98 if they got out of the NL.

They didn't get any hitters. They added a young Sosa.

Morgan was on the team with Maddux in 1992.

Maddux won 20 with the Cubs in 1992 and 20 with Atlanta in 1993. If he'd won 20 with the Cubs in 1993 vs. Guzman's 12, that would have been a 92-win team. Assuming some of those wins would have been against Philly and Montreal, they would have been within 2-3 games of winning the division (without making any late season moves to try to win the division).

I win.

_________________
You know me like that.

I'm talking about actually winning a World Series. They wouldn't have.

Toronto would have killed them in the 93 World Series. That Toronto team was loaded!!!!!

I win.

Also, how many games did the Cubs win in Guzman's starts? Just cuz he only had 12, doesn't mean the Cubs didn't win more games when he started and he got a no decision. Didn't think of that, did ya Doc.

I win again!!!!

You also can't assume Maddux wins 20 for the Cubs in 1993. Maybe he loses a lot of 2-1 games with the Cubs.

He won 20 with the Cubs the year before. I can easily assume he'd win as many on a better Cub squad. He probably would have won 24.

_________________
You know me like that.

And that's Jose Guzman, Jose Guzman to you sir.

Beardown: No.

Doc: Yes.

Beardown: No

Doc: Yes.

Greg Maddux: Hell, no. The 1993 Cubs sucked.

Doc:

Beardown:

Doc:

Guzman's 1993 WAR: .4

Maddux's 1993 WAR: 5.8

Cubs finished 4th in the NL East in 1993. 13 games back of a Philly team that won 97 games. No Wild Card then. So, no, Maddux wouldn't have made the difference that year, Doc. C'mon. You know that.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/history/season/_/year/1993

Who are these fans crying?

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

All of them except you I guess.

I have yet to see one cub fan around here cry about losing him.

I hated it when it happened but you get over it.

I was happy to see him have a great career.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I see Beardown is using a B&B strawman today.

_________________

Ok. If you don't like the word "crying", substitue "upset", "mad" or "angry".

Cubs fans clearly would have liked to have seen Maddux stay with the Cubs. Why is me saying that such a controversial statement?

I'm simply making them feel better about losing him by telling them they wouldn't have won a World Series if they had kept him.

damn - beardown went all dolphin on us today.
They lose.

Them:

_________________

What year is this?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

His next topic should be Cubs fans crying over losing Lou Brock.

_________________

It's 21 years after the Cubs lost Greg Maddux.

Somebody should hot carl in beardown's mouth

_________________

I'm bringing it up cuz there is a lot of Maddux talk since he's going into the HOF on Sunday. Jeez.

_________________
You know me like that.

I'm not even sure why.

_________________

What does that mean?

It's the same thing you do to your white women.

_________________

I don't know if I'm crying over it, but I would have loved to have Maddux as a Cub for his whole career.

I have to agree though, the teams in the 90's were missing pitching.

_________________