I don't think any Hall of Fame pitcher has ever been stopped by pitching on bad teams. The concerns for Sale are injuries and the loss of velocity that every modern pitcher seems to deal with after several years in the big leagues.

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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Omg love

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Possibly. Curt Schilling was the first guy that came into my head. It wasn't until Arizona when he started having 20 win seasons. He was a really good pitcher for the Phillies, but never could get the wins. Even Maddux was regularly losing over 10 games until he went to Atlanta.

Those definitely are concerns, I'm just saying that HoF voting takes wins into heavy consideration. If you are not getting run support, you may miss out on a few to a lot of wins.

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Couldn't agree more.

They have no choice but to reconsider their position on wins. With the specialization that is the norm now,it will be tough to accumulate wins in the same way.

I agree, but I don't think you can go back and reconsider retroactively. Mark Buehrle's 216 wins in his time are better than Curt Schilling's 216 wins in his. I'm not saying Buehrle is more deserving of the Hall than Schilling. Frankly, I don't think either guy belongs. But there are other factors besides wins. You have to take the wins in the context of their time. Schilling's biggest problem was that he was hurt and hardly pitched in three of what should have been his prime seasons.

One of the biggest issues I have with the new statistical analysis is using it to go back in time to reevaluate players. You can't judge a guy on things he wasn't asked to do. Just because the current philosophy is that strikeouts aren't bad doesn't mean that Rob Deer and Dave Kingman are suddenly better than people thought they were. And the fact that Ferris Fain walked like crazy in an era when walking wasn't considered the great thing it is now doesn't make him a better player.

Here's a personal story that I recently thought about with regard to the way walks are viewed today as opposed to the past. My old man was supposedly a pretty good ballplayer. But you know, I never saw him play. It could have just been him piping about his glory days. I know he played in the low minors in the Giants system because I've seen the pictures. The thing is, he couldn't hit. Of course, that's the thing that eventually stops most guys at some level. But I can remember when he was teaching me the game as a kid, he always stressed that you have to get on base however you can. Make yourself small and take a walk. Lean into a pitch if you have to.

Anyway, one day about twenty years ago I was at a business meeting with an old guy and we exchanged cards and he started looking at mine. My dad and I have the same name, and the guy started going on about what a great shortstop my father was. The guy said the old man would have made the big leagues if he could have hit a lick. The point of this story is that I wonder what my dad's OBP was and if he would have been viewed differently today. And my conclusion is that it doesn't really matter. Players belong in their own time. Max Bishop isn't better now than he was in 1933 just because Bill James convinced the world of the importance of the walk.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

could fred mcgriff in a lean year be a cheeky answer to this?

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Fred McGriff might be a deserving guy. He was buried by bigger numbers of lesser guys during the steroid era. I still think he's a little short though.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

i think that being a little short is fred's MO though. once you think of "the road to 500" as more of a metaphorical idea than a tangible thing, shit, hearken jack nicholson from mars attacks when you say that "493 ain't bad."

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how dare you

I don't think McGriff is really eligible for this thread anyway. We're talking about guys who might go in with a Cubs or Sox logo on their cap. We're not talking about guys who had a cup of coffee with one of the teams at the end of their careers. If we are, the obvious answer is Griffey.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

John Baker

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Who will have more career wins, Baker or Leury Garcia?

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Has he gotten an AB this decade?

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I think its okay to look at stats across eras. I like looking across eras for key stats, like WAR. Should it be the deciding factor to get in the Hall? Maybe, maybe not. Thinking about it, even looking within the same era, the NL and AL are two totally different leagues. The stats for a hall of fame caliber pitcher in the AL, of the same era, might be totally different than the stats for a hall of fame caliber pitcher in the NL in that same era. For example, we know the AL has a lot more hitting. Would Maddux have won as many games in the AL during that same era? Who knows.

I'm more focused on the criteria across eras to get into the Hall. Correct me if I am wrong, but wins are still a major deciding factor for starting pitching, even though I don't believe it should be as important as it is. Its like a power hitter. If a power hitter doesn't hit 500 home runs, you bring in doubt. If a pitcher didn't get 300 wins, you bring doubt. Was Schilling a Hall of Fame pitcher? He might be, but I'm sure he wouldn't get considered by some voters simply because he only won 216 games.

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Wait a minute, are you Joe Pettini, Jr.?

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"Smiles with Nostrils"

"...no Hmong, go find some blacks"

If there has ever been a pitcher who was deserving of the Hall of Fame and didn't make it due to playing on bad teams, I don't know who he is. Teams are good because of their starting pitchers. Glavine and Maddux didn't win 300 games because they were on good teams. The Braves won 14 division titles because they had Galvine and Maddux.

We can have all the arguments we want about "run support", but if we have to look at the "run support" a guy got to figure out if he was any good, he wasn't. One of the great and unique things about baseball is that you are a different team and you play a different team everyday depending on the starting pitcher. The Cubs are one of the best teams in baseball when Arrieta is pitching. On the other four days they are usually terrible.

Pedro has 219 wins and he's a no-brainer on the first ballot. Schilling has 216 and he's questionable. He may make it in because of the co-MVP with Arizona and the phony bloody sock in Boston. Like Chilli said, there has to be an adjustment of expectation on some of the numbers or there will never be another starting pitcher in the Hall. The style of the game in the era must be considered. But my fear would be that when you take a deserving guy from an era, like Roy Halladay who has about 200 wins, that opens the door for someone to say, "why isn't Sal Maglie or Bret Saberhagen in there?" Those guys have less than 200 wins but a lot of other strong numbers.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And umpires calling the widest strike zone in the history of baseball.

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2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

what if Dunn hits 575?

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Absoultely not. Do you think he's a Hall of Famer?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Do you think the umpires just liked Glavine and Maddux? Those guys made that plate with their control.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If Dunn makes it they ought to close the doors and shut the place down

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I am just making a point, I have never seen players get a baseball off of the black like they used to. I like them both and both without deserve to be in the Hall. They were given a very wide strike zone.

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2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

No I don't think so. Used to be 500 was automatic and it *seems* Dunn did it without PEDs. It would be interesting if he went way past 500 though.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Paulie, Paulie, Paulie, Paulie.....etc.

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It's interesting that he probably is a clean player, but the steroid era has taken the luster off his one benchmark. There will be all kinds of 500 homer guys who aren't in now.

My take on Dunn is that he was a one-trick pony and it was quite a trick, but everything else was too terrible for him to even be considered a good player.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Schilling's playoff dominance for three different teams gets him in

Maybe. Probably.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Id put Jack Morris in for the same reason


Also Kirk Gibson. Maybe Id have a post-season specific wing

Geoff Blum gets in I hope.

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