CG, 1 hit, 0 ER, 0 walk, and couldn't get a win.

3rd starter at best; 4th on a contender.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Oooooooh JORR's gonna be pissed at you!

_________________

No. But it would be difficult to argue that in the actual game that was played tonight (not some other game that doesn't actually exist where Miguel Cabrera belts four home runs) that he was better than Alex Cobb and the other two guys that finished up for him. And unfortunately for him, that was the game he was in.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

How is a guy that pitches 8 innings and strikes out nine while allowing one hit and no walks better than three guys that pitch nine innings, walk two and allow four hits?

_________________

Jorr knows how silly his argument is. It's been gone over and over and he won't relent when I'm pretty sure he knows he's wrong or just not right.
He has doubled and tripled down in a losing battle.
It's kind of admirable.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Don't be an idiot. That's baseball. Maybe you don't know it because the vast majority of your life has been spent during an era of ridiculous juiced-ball, juiced-batter offense where it was rare for one guy to pitch well in a game, let alone two. Sometimes two guys pitch good games. What's silly is to suggest that the one who lost didn't "deserve it". If somehow the powerhouse Detroit offense (which is averaging about three-quarters of a run more than Tampa, something a lot of people believe to be monumental) had scratched out two runs, could we then have the conversation about how poor Alex Cobb didn't deserve to lose? Pitchers pitch the games they're in.

In 1963 Warren Spahn threw 15 innings and lost 1-0. I guarantee he wasn't talking about his lack of "run support". He was acknowledging that Marichal beat him.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I suppose I should have said "worse" or "not better".

_________________

Because he allowed the triple that scored the winning run. Have we really lost all ability to recognize the object of the game? Let me clue you in, it isn't to sharpen up one's WHIP.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I knew what you meant.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

To score more runs than the other team. It seems like Price did his best to help his team win. He allowed only one hit while his teammates couldn't score a run on four hits.

_________________

That's what he gets for being in the AL and not being able to hit a homer like Keearry Wood would have if he wasn't getting any run support.

I don't think anyone has said Price pitched anything but excellently in that game. He just happened to run into a guy who pitched better, albeit with help from two relievers. But that should raise questions for the thoughtful fan. Was yesterday just an instance of two top starters coming with their A games vs. each other? Possibly. But there might be more at play. I didn't see the game, but I look at the box score and I see four guys pitched and allowed a total of five hits. Right away I have to think there were certain conditions- although I can't say what they were- that strongly favored the pitchers. Perhaps a generous strikezone or a difficult hitter's background.

Anyway, I think a lot of the thought processes people have toward the game are residue of the post-strike steroid era. I'm not sure what the definition of "run support" is. Is there some expectation that a team should score x amount of runs when a certain guy you think is good is pitching?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

JORR can correct me if I'm wrong, but after going back and forth with him in other threads, it seems for him the job of a pitcher is simply to allow at least one run less than the opposing pitcher(s). If you fail at that then you deserve the loss.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Sounds like it. If your offense is smacking the ball around, sounds like it would be prime time to serve up gopher balls!

_________________
-- source

Exactly. I think the main argument against W/L records is that there is too much noise or too many things that are out of the pitcher's "control", although I would use the word "influence". But we don't hold other statistics to such rigid standards. For example, If Jeff Samardzija walks the bases loaded and the next batter crushes a deep shot that gets held up by a strong wind and Junior Lake leaps halfway into the stands to pull it back into the park, we aren't adding four runs to Samardzija's ERA. Things happen the way they happen.

There is no perfect statistic. The thing that a W/L record does that no other stat does (for a starting pitcher, for a reliever W/L record means very little) is measure a man's efforts against his peers who are doing the same job. If David Price pitches the way he did last night, it's likely to result in a lot of Wins. And if it doesn't, perhaps further examination is called for since that would suggest that there are quite a few other guys pitching as well or better relative to Price on the days he actually pitches.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

They should give the Cy Young to the lowest WHIP pitcher . Maybe Samardzija can win it with 5 wins

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

They usually do

So Price failed yesterday even though he gave up zero earned runs.

Chris Sale lost a game last year 2-0 when both runs were unearned. Two errors by Alexei lead to the runs. How on earth is that the pitcher's fault?

_________________

That's why a 27K 3 walk game is better than a perfect game, duh.

Well if it were my premise I would say earned runs. However even I were to concede this argument about the usefulness of wins and losses as a stat, I still don't think it's a good indicator by itself of a pitcher's merit over the long term of a season or career. But as a job during a single game on one night, yes you'd want to give up one less than your opponent, but even that's not entirely fair since you face different hitters. Now JORR might mention run differentials between offenses here to say perhaps that most pitchers face similar challenges everyday despite facing different lineups, but I'm not sold on that. For example I wouldn't say facing the Angels hitters is a similar challenge to facing, say, last place team x's hitters, even though when you average everything out over the season the difference is not as stark as you might think at first.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Well, in this particular case, there's no question that Alex Cobb was facing the tougher lineup. But as I've said repeatedly, in the space of a single game, that difference is inconsequential.

As far as "unearned" runs go, what part of that triple was "unearned"? The fact that runs are unearned doesn't mean a pitcher didn't allow them. In fact, if a guy drops the ball on what should have been the third out, everything thereafter in the inning is "unearned". In that case, you don't think the pitcher is responsible for the triples and homers he allows after the error?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Obviously somebody thinks the pitcher is not responsible for those runs because ERA has not factored those in for over 100 years.

_________________

In your opinion facing the best hitting team in baseball and facing the worst hitting team in baseball is pretty much the same thing in the space of a single game?


This is the part where you lose most people I think.

A pitcher facing the A's lineup is not an equal task to a pitcher facing a Padre lineup whether its in the same game and conditions or not. Its just not. Its much harder to get the good hitting teams out and keep them from scoring

In the space of a single game Babe Ruth can go 0-4 and strikeout every time and Tuffy Rhodes can blast three home runs. If those were the only two games you ever watched, you'd be able to make a fair argument that Tuffy was better than Ruth. The difference between big league offenses in most cases is marginal, i.e. less than a run per game. As I've stated time and time again, an increment which cannot even be scored. Sure there's a huge difference between scoring 800 runs and 650 in a season, but it only shows up after time. And that's the heart of baseball. It's a game of time and repetition.

Now we're asking a pitcher who you insist is superior to pitch over a .75 run difference in average offense while facing a pitcher you would undoubtedly say wasn't nearly as good and if he can't do that more often than not, how could he possibly be as good as you're insisting he is?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I find it funny that nobody tries to understand what JORR's saying and they'd rather just argue with him. He's right for the most part.

I do agree with him in a small part of his argument but I don't agree in his larger point at all.
He's taking a glass of water out of the ocean and saying there's no sharks in there (I agree) then concluding there's no sharks in the ocean (I wouldn't agree).

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

BITE

_________________

Are you serious?

Ive gone back and forth with him a ton on this and discussed it every which way. Im not even dismissive of Wins. I just strongly disagree with the weight JORR puts on it

I think he overemphasizes game condition. He thinks I overemphasize getting batters out.

This does not make sense. The fact that the difference becomes more evident over time doesnt make the difference any less of a difference

What you're saying just means that in one game they're can be an anomaly. But were looking at a season of Win Loss percentage.


There is a huge difference in the difficulty of the task of stopping the A's from scoring compared to stopping the task of stopping the Padres so the pitchers are not on equal footing to begin with.

You disagree with that, I know.

And I think the part of your argument where you say "if he's so good, why cant he___" is irrelevant. Expectations of individuals shouldnt really be a part of this argument.

I really like that analogy, but that's not exactly what he's saying. It's more like taking a glass of water and saying there's no shark in it and concluding that there's no shark in that glass of water. The new stat-infested smarter baseball fan would tell you that all water, whether it be in the ocean or in a glass, MUST BE evaluated equally and they can calculate to a certainty that there is precisely .00000000000000000000000000000001 sharks in that glass of water and to think otherwise makes you a mouth-breathing drooling buffoon.